What is the Qur'an?

[Green Gaia]

Wow... where to begin. Well, I'm not going to argue with you, Sheild. You obviously have your mind made up and nothing I say is going to change that, I know. But one thing I will say, I do not believe sex is only for procreation, if that were true, it wouldn't feel so darn good. :lol:

If sex were only to make babies, then all straight couples who cannot have children or do not want children, would be "going against nature" when they engaged in sexual relations. Does Islam condemn these couples as well? If not, then it's stance that homosexuality is wrong because children cannot be conceived from the sexual union of the couple, is very hypocritical.

I won't even speak of your blatantly wrong misconceptions about what a gay man looks and acts like and that they all have AIDS. Do you think all lesbians wear flannel and birkenstocks as well? You have bought into stereotypes, my friend.


"this will never ever happen in the Muslim world"
Bet ya it does. :lol:

 

[The Shield of Islam]

Some previous posts seem to regard the question of homosexuality as being only one of sexual behaviour. It is rather primarily a question of love, and who would like to prohibit people from loving one another? Shield seems to think that all homosexual persons are men.

No, I dont think it is only men, I think the disease of homosexuality is for both men and women.

How wrong! And don't forget that a number of homosexual couples do want to have children, and so they consider adoptions, artificial insemination in the case of woman-woman relationships etc.

And do you think this is natural ?? did you ever ask your self how the child will feel when he sees his friends having natural fathers and mothers while he/she has not !!!! did you ever question the implication on this child pyschology !!!!

Personally, I do not believe in any "aims" or "meanings" in what "nature" has given us. I do not think of myself as a traitor against humanity because I do not have any children.

I respect your opinion, but it is EXACTLY this sort of thinking that is driving the western societies into the abyss, it is this ''morale corruption'' and 'ethical bankuptcy'' which is taking the west down the drain.

Your descriptions of homosexuals are uniformed caricatures. A former fiancée of mine had quite a number of male homosexual acquaintances among her many friends of all kinds. They were all, without exception, very nice people, and only in very few cases (one or maybe two), you could guess their inclination. They sure did not look more unhealthy than the average "straight" people.

Well, during my study in England, I met some of those homosexuals at work and at university, and oh yes, they dont look healthy and you can tell from their faces they were not right.

 

[The Shield of Islam]

Wow... where to begin. Well, I'm not going to argue with you, Sheild. You obviously have your mind made up and nothing I say is going to change that, I know. But one thing I will say, I do not believe sex is only for procreation, if that were true, it wouldn't feel so darn good. :lol:

You will be surprised to know that in Islam, Sex is NOT only for procreation, it is for enjoyment for both men and women, in fact, a muslim woman can divorece her husband if she was not sexually satisfied with him.

If sex were only to make babies, then all straight couples who cannot have children or do not want children, would be "going against nature" when they engaged in sexual relations.

Sex for babies is christian and jewish doctrine, it is NOT Islamic.

Does Islam condemn these couples as well? If not, then it's stance that homosexuality is wrong because children cannot be conceived from the sexual union of the couple, is very hypocritical.

Again, Islam strictly forbids homosexuality not only because it ends procreation but because of its affects on the society as a whole, homosexaulity is a disease that must be treated, and many homosexuls were treated and now they ae straight.

I won't even speak of your blatantly wrong misconceptions about what a gay man looks and acts like and that they all have AIDS. Do you think all lesbians wear flannel and birkenstocks as well? You have bought into stereotypes, my friend.

Well Maize, you have your views and I have mine, for me and from an Islamic point of view, homosexuality is disease, it is sickness that engulfs morally corrupt soceities, if you guys are happy with it, so be it...GOOD LUCK, let us see where your soceities are going in the next 10-20 years !!

YOU ARE DIGGING YOUR OWN GRAVEYARD BY YOUR OWN HANDS.

"this will never ever happen in the Muslim world"
Bet ya it does. :lol:

Of course an act of unnatural sexual pervertion take place in the Muslim world, but it is not normal, it is very very exceptional cases, not a single muslim country promotes this disease, we shall fight this disease to the end until we eradicate it from our societies, I want my childern and indeed all Muslim childern to grow up in very healthy CLEAN natural society.

 

[Green Gaia]

"many homosexuls were treated and now they ae straight."
By what means were they treated? Threatened with harm and death unless they surpress who they are and pretend to be someone else? I hardly call that treatment....

"let us see where your soceities are going in the next 10-20 years !!

YOU ARE DIGGING YOUR OWN GRAVEYARD BY YOUR OWN HANDS."
Might I remind you of the first forum rule, Shield:
"While debating and discussion is fine, we will not tolerate rudeness, insulting posts, personal attacks or purposeless inflammatory posts."

And with that, I think I'm done learning about Islam from you, my friend. I need someone a little more tolerant, and a lot less judgemental.

Good day.

 

[Runt]

Wow, where to begin... I've been gone for days (choir tour to Disneyland ) and there is SOOO much I've missed on these forums!

I respect your opinion, but I think homosexuality is great danger on society

My own personal opinion is that homosexuality is not a danger to society... the danger comes from those who are not accepting of homosexuality, from those who hate and fear homosexuals and cause emotional, mental, and physical abuse. I'm not saying that this is YOU, so don't take it as a personal attack. I just believe that it is not homosexuality that is dangerous, but the REACTIONS to homosexuality.

The humiliation of them by their peers is another tragedy which can lead to further and/ or deeper psychosis. Say,for ex., a homo. dresses like a female, walks and talks like a female looks 97% female then tricks a guy into having relations (sex) . This will cause much mental distress on the guy to where he may resort to murder.

Yay, you made my point for me. It seems to me in these situations the homosexuals are not at fault... those who commit crimes and abuses of intolerence are at fault.

Khat and weed does not make you addictive, although heroin, cocaine and others do.

I have no idea what khat is, but I do know that weed IS addictive; not physiologically, but psychologically--it is a proven medical fact.

My philosophy is, that you should not impose your views on others.

I do believe Shield was merely stating his opinion after being asked a direct question. It is not wrong to state an opinion and give examples why you believe your opinion to be true. This is the way of healthy debate; just because we don't like a view doesn't mean we should try to stifle it.

20. Against those of your women who commit adultery, call witnesses four in number from among yourselves; and if these bear witness, then keep the women in houses until death release them, or God shall make for them a way.

21. And if two (men) of you commit it, then hurt them both; but if they turn again and amend, leave them alone, verily, God is easily turned, compassionate.

I am no scholar on Islam, but I think there may be a different way to interpret this. 20 was referring to adultry and the punishment proscribed for women committing adultry. 21 also seems to be referring to adultry as well, this time a husband cheating on his wife with another man. I don't think it is expressly saying that homosexuality is a sin; I think it may be saying that ADULTRY, of any form, is a sin.

But then, I am not a religious scholar by any means, and I know I am not reading the passages in full context.

One question: Why does it not talk about what should be done with a man who commits adultry with a woman other than his wife? Is this acceptable in mainstream Islamic society?

I noticed that you related nature with animals, this is not accurate, humans are not animals, humans are not created for homosexuality ( I mean look at men and women, look how they are created to suit each other sexulay : the penis and the vagina.

No offense, but isn't talking about what is "natural" and then refusing to be a part of the natural world hypocritical?

I personally think humans are animals that God gave higher thinking abilities to so that they could look out for the rest of the world; my how we've failed!

And might I point out that animals are also created to suit each other sexually? They have the same sexual organs we humans do (unless they are hermaphrodic... then the situation is a little different) and it is STILL natural for them to have homosexual tendencies. And yet these homosexual tendencies do not lead to the downfall of the species!

You cannot blame the atrocities of presidents like Saddam Hussein and George Bush on the religions they are thougt to follow.

Well said!

Moreover, it implies wretchedness and misery of the womenfolk and he himself is prone to so many diseases: the basic organs of his body, brain, heart, liver and kidneys become deficiently immune (AIDS), his face lacks the sparkle of health and he looks off-colour and melancholy, with the result that such an incapacitated criminal becomes worthless to women. This wretched outcast deprives himself of the bounty of procreation and the priceless jewel of morality.

I must say, if you wrote this yourself, you too have quite a talent for lyrical writing. (By the way, thanks for reading my stuff!)

However, I must disagree with the content. AIDS can be transferred between men and women as easily as it can be transferred from man to man. To say that homosexuality is bad because it leads to AIDS is hypocritical; by that same logic we would have to say that SEX itself is bad because it leads to AIDS.

Sex is DANGEROUS because it MAY lead to STDs. The same for homosexuality. But that does not mean either are morally corrupt. There is danger in everything we do...

Furthermore, I have known many different homosexuals in my life. I don't recall any of them looking less healthy than any other person.

And do you think this is natural ?? did you ever ask your self how the child will feel when he sees his friends having natural fathers and mothers while he/she has not !!!! did you ever question the implication on this child pyschology !!!!

Um... again, flawed logic. If homosexuality is wrong because it deprives a child of having natural fathers and mothers, then by the same line of thinking ADOPTION in general is also wrong... it too causes much grief when children begin to ask "Why didn't my natural parents want me?" or grow convinced that their adoptive parents love their "natural" children more than their adopted children. But adoption itself is NOT detrimental to society... it can lead to some uncomfortable moments and feelings of inadequacy in the child, but this does not make it BAD. Same with homosexuality.

Well, during my study in England, I met some of those homosexuals at work and at university, and oh yes, they dont look healthy and you can tell from their faces they were not right.

Perchance it was their environment? I have heard that there is not much sunlight in England, that it is cold, etc. Perhaps the unhealthy homosexuals there are miserable like everyone else?

I have never seen homosexuals to be any less healthy than other people, and I have known at least 6 of them in my short 18 years...

Well, there was Bobby, who got bacterial meningitis... but that was his best friend Clara's fault, since she always shared her soda with him

YOU ARE DIGGING YOUR OWN GRAVEYARD BY YOUR OWN HANDS.

This IS abuse. Earlier you were having a healthy debate, but this is flat out intolerant. Try not to make statements such as this in the future.

 

[The Shield of Islam]

"many homosexuls were treated and now they ae straight."
By what means were they treated? Threatened with harm and death unless they surpress who they are and pretend to be someone else? I hardly call that treatment....

Come on Maize, be reasonable, they were treated in special clinics for reorientation therapy :

http://www.narth.com/docs/debate.html

"let us see where your soceities are going in the next 10-20 years !!

YOU ARE DIGGING YOUR OWN GRAVEYARD BY YOUR OWN HANDS."
Might I remind you of the first forum rule, Shield:
"While debating and discussion is fine, we will not tolerate rudeness, insulting posts, personal attacks or purposeless inflammatory posts."

I am not insulting, I am not being rude, I am not attacking you personally, I am voicing my opinion, is that against the forum rules ??

And with that, I think I'm done learning about Islam from you, my friend. I need someone a little more tolerant, and a lot less judgemental.

This is funny, you wont find a single Muslim who will tell you Homosexuality is OK in Islam, this will be grave hypocrisy, Islam is not tailord made to suit some perverted desires, Homosexuality is disease which need to be eradicated, it is strictly banned in Islam, this is our Islam and we are proud of it wheather it suits your perverted views or not, it does not really matter.

At least, I am being honest with you, here is extra information:

The Evil Sin of Homosexuality

http://www.al-jumuah.com/articles/articles/fa/homo.htm

 

[The Shield of Islam]

Wow, where to begin... I've been gone for days (choir tour to Disneyland ) and there is SOOO much I've missed on these forums!

Welcome back lady.

I respect your opinion, but I think homosexuality is great danger on society

My own personal opinion is that homosexuality is not a danger to society... the danger comes from those who are not accepting of homosexuality, from those who hate and fear homosexuals and cause emotional, mental, and physical abuse. I'm not saying that this is YOU, so don't take it as a personal attack. I just believe that it is not homosexuality that is dangerous, but the REACTIONS to homosexuality.

Again, I respect your opinion but I strongly disagree with it, it is quite remarkable to dismiss the grave danger homosexuality causes to the basic unit of soceity, the Nuclear Family.

Another serious consequence to homosexual activity is the birth of serious diseases that plague the Earth. The AIDS virus claims millions of lives every year and this kind of sexual deviance is among its main causes. Another consequence of this sin is the uneasiness and depression that take over the offender.

The humiliation of them by their peers is another tragedy which can lead to further and/ or deeper psychosis. Say,for ex., a homo. dresses like a female, walks and talks like a female looks 97% female then tricks a guy into having relations (sex) . This will cause much mental distress on the guy to where he may resort to murder.

Yay, you made my point for me. It seems to me in these situations the homosexuals are not at fault... those who commit crimes and abuses of intolerence are at fault.

So the homosexuals are blameless ?? your comments are BREATH-TAKING !!!

My philosophy is, that you should not impose your views on others.

I do believe Shield was merely stating his opinion after being asked a direct question. It is not wrong to state an opinion and give examples why you believe your opinion to be true. This is the way of healthy debate; just because we don't like a view doesn't mean we should try to stifle it.

Well said.

One question: Why does it not talk about what should be done with a man who commits adultry with a woman other than his wife? Is this acceptable in mainstream Islamic society?

No it is not acceptable, adultery outside marriage is major sin for both men and women.

I noticed that you related nature with animals, this is not accurate, humans are not animals, humans are not created for homosexuality ( I mean look at men and women, look how they are created to suit each other sexulay : the penis and the vagina.

No offense, but isn't talking about what is "natural" and then refusing to be a part of the natural world hypocritical?

Yes but our friend mazie is making the natural world exclusively for animals and equating humans with animals !!! this is very wrong.

I personally think humans are animals that God gave higher thinking abilities to so that they could look out for the rest of the world; my how we've failed!

Again, it is your opinion and I respect it, I disagree however, Humans are not animals.

And might I point out that animals are also created to suit each other sexually? They have the same sexual organs we humans do (unless they are hermaphrodic... then the situation is a little different) and it is STILL natural for them to have homosexual tendencies. And yet these homosexual tendencies do not lead to the downfall of the species!

Maybe you can explain to me how many animals got extinct since the beginning of life ???

I dont think chicken, sheep, cows and other animals that humans depend on are homos !!

Moreover, it implies wretchedness and misery of the womenfolk and he himself is prone to so many diseases: the basic organs of his body, brain, heart, liver and kidneys become deficiently immune (AIDS), his face lacks the sparkle of health and he looks off-colour and melancholy, with the result that such an incapacitated criminal becomes worthless to women. This wretched outcast deprives himself of the bounty of procreation and the priceless jewel of morality.

I must say, if you wrote this yourself, you too have quite a talent for lyrical writing. (By the way, thanks for reading my stuff!)

No, I did not write it myself, I read it in an Islamic book about homosexuality.

However, I must disagree with the content. AIDS can be transferred between men and women as easily as it can be transferred from man to man. To say that homosexuality is bad because it leads to AIDS is hypocritical; by that same logic we would have to say that SEX itself is bad because it leads to AIDS.

This is flawed logic, sex DOES NOT lead to AIDS, it is the misuse of sex that lead to AIDS, sex within marriage DOES not leas to AIDS, adultery and homosexuality lead to AIDS, you see, everything GOD told us to do is for our benefits, everything else is disease.

Furthermore, I have known many different homosexuals in my life. I don't recall any of them looking less healthy than any other person.

The same for me, every single homosexual that I met was sick, I mean they have no light in their eyes, most of them were skinny !!

And do you think this is natural ?? did you ever ask your self how the child will feel when he sees his friends having natural fathers and mothers while he/she has not !!!! did you ever question the implication on this child pyschology !!!!

Um... again, flawed logic. If homosexuality is wrong because it deprives a child of having natural fathers and mothers, then by the same line of thinking ADOPTION in general is also wrong... it too causes much grief when children begin to ask "Why didn't my natural parents want me?"

Again, your logic is flawed, adoption is EXCEPTION, the adopted child has nothing to do with his misfortune being orphane or without father or mother, while homosexuals PURPOSELY deprive childern from their natural father/mother, big difference.

Well, during my study in England, I met some of those homosexuals at work and at university, and oh yes, they dont look healthy and you can tell from their faces they were not right.

Perchance it was their environment? I have heard that there is not much sunlight in England, that it is cold, etc. Perhaps the unhealthy homosexuals there are miserable like everyone else?

But me and all my friends were very healthy !!!!!

I have never seen homosexuals to be any less healthy than other people, and I have known at least 6 of them in my short 18 years...

Jeeee, God help you !! :shock:

YOU ARE DIGGING YOUR OWN GRAVEYARD BY YOUR OWN HANDS.

This IS abuse. Earlier you were having a healthy debate, but this is flat out intolerant. Try not to make statements such as this in the future.

Excuse me !! ABUSE !! why ?? abuse what ??? I am expressing my own opinion and guess what, here is it again:

''Allowing homosexuality is like digging your own Societies' grave yard''

 

[Green Gaia]

Sheild, you're starting to make me think that the sole purpose of Islam is to eradicate homosexuality from the world. Of course, I know this is not true, so why don't we drop the subject of homosexuality for now because no one's minds are going to be changed by this constant going back and forth. Let's move on to something else please.

 

[Rex]

While some may not like Sheild of Islam's response, because to some it is rude, he is posting his Islam Oriented Opinion in the Islam Forum.

I am not sure of the debate between Islamic people on the subject but if someone from the Islam community would like to say different than what has been said we have to take his opinion into consideration.

While the moderators did do the right thing this is the first time this delimma has come up and will continue to come up. As long as these opinionated comments don't make it to a more general forum they will be tolerated.

8)

 

[best friend]

hello every one,

please know that the title of the subject is "what is the quran?",so we should be talking about the book itself; is it really from god?, whats the proof?, what does it consist of?,....etc. and iam afraid to say its not appropriate to talk about homosexuality in here, if you still want to talk about it from a religious perspective i would suggest to make a new topic for it.
best regards

the moderator

 

[Runt]

Aye... we got a little off track. There are 2 conversations on homosexuality in the Christianity forum, 1 about Gay Marriage in the Unitarian Universalism forum, and 1 on Gay Marriage in the Debate forum if anyone wants to continue this conversation there (though personally I think we've talked ourselves in a circle and have nothing new to say...)

 

[The Shield of Islam]

Sheild, you're starting to make me think that the sole purpose of Islam is to eradicate homosexuality from the world. Of course, I know this is not true, so why don't we drop the subject of homosexuality for now because no one's minds are going to be changed by this constant going back and forth. Let's move on to something else please.

Sure, Let us move to something else, any suggestions ?

 

[The Shield of Islam]

hello every one,

please know that the title of the subject is "what is the quran?",so we should be talking about the book itself; is it really from god?, whats the proof?, what does it consist of?,....etc. and iam afraid to say its not appropriate to talk about homosexuality in here, if you still want to talk about it from a religious perspective i would suggest to make a new topic for it.
best regards

the moderator

Thanks Best friend, The problem is this: some people want to express their views( which are very contradictory to Islam's views ) and yet they dont want to listen to the Islamic views and consider them rude !!

I dont mind Mazie's opinions, I respect her and her opinions, will she show the same respect for my opinions even if they are in total contrast with hers ????

 

[Green Gaia]

Sheild, I do respect your opinion which is why I asked you to move on from the subject of homosexuality before things got anymore heated. Someone else, neither you nor I, brought up the subject in the first place, and since he had been mentioned I took the opportunity to ask what specifically the Qur'an said about homosexuality. I did not ask for your personal feelings about it, and I certainly did not ask to hear your thoughts on what homosexuality was doing to society.

I was genuinely interested in what Islam says about homosexuality, because all we in the U.S. ever hear about is Christianity views on this subject. I felt those questions had been answered, or at least I had your verison of what Islam says about homosexuality, so I asked you to move on. I didn't ask for a debate on this, I asked for verses from the Qur'an, but you felt the need to inject your personal feelings into the conversation and were insulting and rude, IMO.

That being said, like best friend posted, this is no longer the thread to deal with this issue. If you want to start another thread dealing specifically with Islam and Homosexuality either in the Islam forum or the Debates forum, that's up to you, but not being Muslim or having any wish to become Muslim, don't expect me to particpate.

Good day.

 

[Green Gaia]

Best Friend--

Can you tell us a little about this history of the Qur'an? Has it gone through any changes or translations? Who wrote it? When was it first written down? What does it tell us historically about the Middle East?

Thanks

 

[canadianhorsefan]

If you don't mind, then I'll answer the questions.

Can you tell us a little about this history of the Qur'an? Has it gone through any changes or translations? Who wrote it? When was it first written down? What does it tell us historically about the Middle East?

It has not gone through any changes. Translations have been made into other languages, but they differ. The original Qur'an still remains unchanged. It was written by memorizers of the Qur'an (before it was written it was memorized) so they could have a book in case all the memorizers died one way or another and for it to spread more easily. It was written down over 1400 years ago. It is Allah(God)'s Words, so whatever Allah wanted to say to humans is in the Qur'an. It does not talk about the culture of the Arabs and what were their habits, etc., but about what humans should do and the Prophets Allah sent. :angel:

canadianhorsefan

 

[sts]

Best Friend--

Can you tell us a little about this history of the Qur'an? Has it gone through any changes or translations? Who wrote it? When was it first written down? What does it tell us historically about the Middle East?

Thanks

I would like to quote some paragraphs from a study by M. Tahlawi, titled "Do You Know this Book"

Islam has a revelation, a holy book, called the Qur'an which was revealed to the prophet Mohammed, peace be upon him, about fourteen hundred years ago. The Qur'an is the last and final revelation until the end of human existence on earth.

What is the Quran all about?

The Quran is written in beautiful prose that continues to be marveled at by the experts of the Arabic language. But it is not merely a literary masterpiece.

The Quran contains scientific facts and explanations that fascinate scientists of all fields. But it is not merely an encyclopedia of science.

The Quran mentions stories of people and places in the past with vivid detail. But it is not merely a book of history.

One of many scientific facts in Quran, is about embroyology, and I would like to quote from Garry Miller "The Amazing Qur'an"

I had the pleasure of interviewing Dr. Keith Moore for a television presentation, and we talked a great deal about this - it was illustrated by slides and so on. He mentioned that some of the things that the Qur'an states about the growth of the human being were not known until thirty years ago. In fact, he said that one item in particular - the Qur'an's description of the human being as a "leech-like clot" ('alaqah) at one stage - was new to him; but when he checked on it, he found that it was true, and so he added it to his book. He said, "I never thought of that before," and he went to the zoology department and asked for a picture of a leech. When he found that it looked just like the human embryo, he decided to include both pictures in one of his textbooks. Dr. Moore also wrote a book on clinical embryology, and when he presented this information in Toronto, it caused quite a stir throughout Canada. It was on the front pages of some of the newspapers across Canada, and some of the headlines

were quite funny. For instance, one headline read: "SURPRISING THING FOUN IN ANCIENT BOOK!"! It seems obvious from this example that people do not clearly understand what it is all about. As a matter of fact, one newspaper reporter asked Professor Moore, "Don't you think That maybe the Arabs might have known about these things - the description of the embryo, its appearance and how it changes and grows? Maybe there were not scientists, but maybe they did something crude dissections on their own - carved up people and examined these things."

The professor immediately pointed out to him that he [i.e., the reporter] had missed a very important point - all of the slides of the embryo that had been shown and had been projected in the film had come from pictures taken through a microscope. He said, "It does not matter if someone had tried to discover embryology fourteen centuries ago, they could not have seen it!". All of the descriptions in the Qur'an of the appearance of the embryo are of the item when it is still too small to see with the eye; therefore, one needs a microscope to see it. Since such a device had only been around for little more than two hundred years, Dr. Moore taunted, "Maybe fourteen centuries ago someone secretly had a microscope and did this research, making no mistakes anywhere. Then he somehow taught Muhammad and convinced him to put this information in his book. Then he destroyed his equipment and kept it a secret forever. Do you believe that? You really should not unless you bring some proof because it is such a ridiculous theory." In fact, when he was asked "How do you explain this information in the Qur'an?" Dr. Moore's reply was, "It could only have been divinely revealed."!