What is the relationship between faith and reason?

[Skwim]

I'm not sure anything I trust is with certainty. Most supposed knowledge is about 85% to 95% certain with little doubt but the doubt is there.

As I said, the trust doesn't admit doubt. Because almost nothing in life is certain (death being the only exception I can think of), when we have a faith in something there is such a trust that "It is so," that we don't entertain the uncertainty (doubt) that always looms in the background.
I have faith that when I work for a reliable company that next month I will be paid for the work I do this month, just as I have for the last 20 years. In fact, I have such faith in it that I will jeopardize my ability to pay for merchandise next month that which I buy today. Of course there's always the possibility the company could go bankrupt and I would be left without pay, which would destroy my faith in the integrity of the company, but at this point in time such uncertainty isn't worth entertaining, and certainly not enough to shake my faith so as to prevent me from buying the merchandise I want.

 

[Conlocke]

A couple responses have come up. This one suggests that faith and reason must work together to gain truth:

"Faith and reason are like two wings on which the human spirit rises to the contemplation of truth; and God has placed in the human heart a desire to know the truth—in a word, to know himself—so that, by knowing and loving God, men and women may also come to the fullness of truth about themselves."

Fides et Ratio - John Paul II - Encyclical Letter (September 15, 1998)

I think this one might need to be unpacked a bit. It is easy to say that faith and reason must work together, but it is more difficult to explain how. Is faith reasonable at all? Is faith separate from reason? Is it superior? etc.

And here is an alternative view:

"Science (reason) adjusts its views based on what's observed. Faith is the denial of observation, so that belief can be preserved."

This view suggests that faith is always necessarily opposed to reason. This seems too narrow. It seems like faith can exist without conflicting with reason, as someone mentioned already.

And another interesting one:

Except that a healthy faith leaves room for doubt.

What is a healthy faith? If it leaves room for doubt, is it really faith?

 

[idav]

As I said, the trust doesn't admit doubt. Because almost nothing in life is certain (death being the only exception I can think of), when we have a faith in something there is such a trust that "It is so," that we don't entertain the uncertainty (doubt) that always looms in the background.
I have faith that when I work for a reliable company that next month I will be paid for the work I do this month, just as I have for the last 20 years. In fact, I have such faith in it that I will jeopardize my ability to pay for merchandise next month that which I buy today. Of course there's always the possibility the company could go bankrupt and I would be left without pay, which would destroy my faith in the integrity of the company, but at this point in time such uncertainty isn't worth entertaining, and certainly not enough to shake my faith so as to prevent me from buying the merchandise I want.

Saying trust doesn't admit doubt wouldn't be true without uncertainty. Thats how I'm reading that but I see what your saying. One is never able to to get rid of the other completely without absolutes.

 

[lunamoth]

This thread explores the topic of faith in some detail. As you will see if you decide to read some of it, it is fashionable now to try to define faith as 'belief without, or in spite of (contrary), evidence. I think the phenomenon of faith is quite a bit richer and more nuanced than that.

http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/comparative-religion/107448-what-faith.html#post2251452

BTW, good topic and welcome!

 

[Scott1]

I think this one might need to be unpacked a bit. It is easy to say that faith and reason must work together, but it is more difficult to explain how. Is faith reasonable at all? Is faith separate from reason? Is it superior?

When you have time, read the link ... I think Blessed JP2 "unpacks" it nicely.

 

[InformedIgnorance]

Reason is how we attempt to understand things

Faith is how we choose to accept things

The two are independent

 

[-Peacemaker-]

i think we can reason things out quite well

we were created to be able to do so.

Our brains don't possess the quality of omniscience even though some people treat them as if they were. Faith fills in the gaps that reason can't

 

[Pegg]

Our brains don't possess the quality of omniscience even though some people treat them as if they were. Faith fills in the gaps that reason can't

we can see into anything through our imaginations... i would equate that to a form of omniscience

i think its that quality which allows us to look into spiritual things in the first place.
Faith is more about hope and trust then what we can imagine or reason on.

 

[InformedIgnorance]

Hope and Trust?

Hmmn, I disagree, faith is about accepting something rather than attempting to understand it - after-all, we can have faith in something like demons for example, faith does not necessarily have positive connotations.

 

[Pegg]

Hope and Trust?

Hmmn, I disagree, faith is about accepting something rather than attempting to understand it - after-all, we can have faith in something like demons for example, faith does not necessarily have positive connotations.

Im sure there are many definitions of faith out there, but i am going by the Apostle Pauls definition of faith. The christian definition is definitely about hoping and trusting in God based on sound reasoning.

 

[blackout]

if it's reasonable to have faith/suspend disbelief... for a reason....

 

[InformedIgnorance]

*Nods* We all have faith, on account of the fact that we need to be able to accept things in order to function within society. If we had to reason out EVERYTHING then we would be unable to communicate effectively, drive a car down the road, advance the frontiers of science and so forth. We have faith, we assume - a whole slew of different things, because if we had to explicitly define and analyse everything in our environment then there would be no time to do anything else; so, to function, we must have faith that we can make reasonable assumptions.

If we use faith to avoid reality, then it is irrational - otherwise there is no irrationality in faith in general though specific cases might differ of course.

 

[gnostic]

*Nods* We all have faith, on account of the fact that we need to be able to accept things in order to function within society. If we had to reason out EVERYTHING then we would be unable to communicate effectively, drive a car down the road, advance the frontiers of science and so forth. We have faith, we assume - a whole slew of different things, because if we had to explicitly define and analyse everything in our environment then there would be no time to do anything else; so, to function, we must have faith that we can make reasonable assumptions.

If we use faith to avoid reality, then it is irrational - otherwise there is no irrationality in faith in general though specific cases might differ of course.

Sure, there are some faith that can be natural. Like you said, you can your faith on something in life.

Like if you live anywhere outside of the arctic circles, you can have faith that the Sun will rise the next morning, and set in the evening. But this is testable and demonstrable. And because the speed of rotation, the earth's tilt, the speed, path and direction of Earth orbiting around the Sun, and the gravity of the 2 masses (Sun & Earth) are pretty much constant, we can predict the precise duration of our day and night, for each day throughout the year.

But the faith in the existence God (or gods) and the afterlife are of the supernatural. You really don't know for certain that he exist, and that where faith comes in, and I have to say this is blind faith.

 

[Tbone]

Please let me know what you think.

The faith the Bible speaks of can not be had without reason.

 

[Skwim]

The faith the Bible speaks of can not be had without reason.

Of course there's good reasoning, poor reasoning, and bad reasoning. So this isn't saying much.

 

[Valjean]

Faith can also be adjusted to fit observation and reason.

At which point it would be properly defined as 'knowledge'.

I would call that belief. Faith is belief with trust; a trust that doesn't admit doubt.

Belief's a very broad term that doesn't speak to sources or evidence. Faith, knowledge and certainty are all beliefs.
Trust is more like confidence. You can have a confident or a trusting faith, of course, but you can also have confidence, belief or trust in knowledge, so the term is not definitive.
As normally used, faith is belief without sufficient evidence, knowledge belief with sufficient evidence.

The faith the Bible speaks of can not be had without reason.

Sure it can. Why do you say that?
Or perhaps it's using the term in some abstract, archaic sense?

 

[InformedIgnorance]

Of course there's good reasoning, poor reasoning, and bad reasoning. So this isn't saying much.

And of course approved reasoning and disapproved reasoning

 

[Skwim]

Belief's a very broad term that doesn't speak to sources or evidence.

Only if one chooses not to let it. And wouldn't evidence qualify as a source? Sure it would.

Faith, knowledge and certainty are all beliefs.

Faith certainly is, but knowledge and certainty are beliefs only in the very broadest sense of the word; notions not worth entertaining.

Trust is more like confidence.

Yes, confidence is often used to define "trust."

You can have a confident or a trusting faith,

Pretty much like saying you can have a colored or pink sheet of paper. It's a meaningless "or" statement.

you can also have confidence, belief or trust in knowledge, so the term is not definitive.

Like saying you can also have taste, aroma, and texture in an orange, so the term (aroma) is not definitive. It's not making any sense.

As normally used, faith is belief without sufficient evidence, knowledge belief with sufficient evidence.

I think you've lost your way here.

 

[Valjean]

My point is that belief is a broad term. One can believe in unicorns; one can believe in cars.
Belief in unicorns is faith, as there's no evidence supporting it. Belief in cars is knowledge, as we have evidence of cars. It's lack of evidence that defines faith, not strength of belief.

 

[DavyCrocket2003]

Sure, there are some faith that can be natural. Like you said, you can your faith on something in life.

Like if you live anywhere outside of the arctic circles, you can have faith that the Sun will rise the next morning, and set in the evening. But this is testable and demonstrable. And because the speed of rotation, the earth's tilt, the speed, path and direction of Earth orbiting around the Sun, and the gravity of the 2 masses (Sun & Earth) are pretty much constant, we can predict the precise duration of our day and night, for each day throughout the year.

But the faith in the existence God (or gods) and the afterlife are of the supernatural. You really don't know for certain that he exist, and that where faith comes in, and I have to say this is blind faith.

So you see how faith is applied naturally in every day life? I mean, even the simple act of walking requires faith. I have to have faith that when I send the signals to all of the various muscles in my body to take a step, that the outcome will be what I desire: a step. If I didn't have faith, I would never make the effort in the first place.

I am going to school because I have faith. I have faith that through increasing my knowledge and skills, I will be better equipped to benefit society. Without that faith, I wouldn't wake up every morning and go to class.

I have faith that the universe is orderly and predictable. I have faith that I can make sense of the causes and effects in my life.

It is faith that allows us to function.