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What Is the Self?

Willamena

Just me
Premium Member
bigvindaloo said:
My belief is that the self is multi-faceted and expansive. I have to use an analogy to explain. The conscious self we are aware of is like the surface of the ocean, the rest of our unconscious self and body is the ocean itself. The atmosphere beyond the surface is made up of the set of 'selves' we occupy in the minds of others - how others conceive us. The surface acts as a two way filter for information exchange in the currency of language. Both atmosphere and ocean are dynamic and constantly changing. Self-awareness is generated from the action of these dynamics coming into contact with the surface in a continual flow.

On this model, the self concept "I" is useful and necessary as a self-referent term. But it's function is no different from other referential labels used to identify objects in space. The decision to associate self with the surface of the ocean is an arbitrary one. As the self is both expansive and internal, it ought to be possible to occupy any perpective within this framework to observe the rest.

Does anyone have any idea what I am talking about?:)
That's a nice analogy. I never really thought of consciousness as the 'tip of the ice berg' of unconsciousness before, but I can see it. I have regarded consciousness in such a way in terms of time --as existing on the threshold of past and future.

I don't understand, though, the suggestion you make that consciousness could be anything other than what it is --the threshold between unconsciousness and outer world. How can it 'occupy any perspective' other than the one subjective to it?
 

bigvindaloo

Active Member
Willamena said:
That's a nice analogy. I never really thought of consciousness as the 'tip of the ice berg' of unconsciousness before, but I can see it. I have regarded consciousness in such a way in terms of time --as existing on the threshold of past and future.

I don't understand, though, the suggestion you make that consciousness could be anything other than what it is --the threshold between unconsciousness and outer world. How can it 'occupy any perspective' other than the one subjective to it?
If you practise meditation you would be familiar with a process of breaking down the arbitrary distinction between conscious and unconscious experience of self. With regard to the "outer world" as you put it, relationships are enough to prove the validity of the idea that it is possible to occupy an external perspective of self. Let yourself be convinced of someone else's opinion of you. You would be halfway there.
 

Willamena

Just me
Premium Member
bigvindaloo said:
If you practise meditation you would be familiar with a process of breaking down the arbitrary distinction between conscious and unconscious experience of self. With regard to the "outer world" as you put it, relationships are enough to prove the validity of the idea that it is possible to occupy an external perspective of self. Let yourself be convinced of someone else's opinion of you. You would be halfway there.
I see. Thanks.
 

bigvindaloo

Active Member
Willamena said:
That's a nice analogy. I never really thought of consciousness as the 'tip of the ice berg' of unconsciousness before, but I can see it. I have regarded consciousness in such a way in terms of time --as existing on the threshold of past and future.

I don't understand, though, the suggestion you make that consciousness could be anything other than what it is --the threshold between unconsciousness and outer world. How can it 'occupy any perspective' other than the one subjective to it?

Thanks for introducing time to the analogy. This is accomodated also.

We surf along the surface in one direction and at a given speed if we adopt conscious experience as our basis for self. Our concept of self can be influenced by whatever self-events either subconscious or external might impact on us at a given point in time meaning there is a cone of influence both above and below the surface at any point in time dictated by the speed of light. Ordinary consciousness acts as a diffracting lense mediated in language between the "inner" and "outer" worlds.

Anybody understand this analogy? :)
 

roli

Born Again,Spirit Filled
cardero said:
This is probably because that no matter what we are surrounded with, self is the only thing that we own.

I don't think we own anything except our choices and actions,all is borrowed,self is constantly changing,altering by influence,circumstances,behaviors and actions of others etc.It's just not a constant,
Who I am as self today, will be different if allowed to change tommorrow
Self involves the senses, fleshly passions,carnal nature,mind, will .emotion.feelings.
Void of the Spirit that gives life, the self may have some Spirits within, but not the one that can impart eternal life.
The spirit makes up who a person is (self),
the soul is the area where self is influenced,proud,tempted,feared,worried,ashamed,lustful,anger etc
The body is the tent,shell.
 

YmirGF

Bodhisattva in Recovery
Good lord sunstone, I could write pages on several of your questions alone, but I will endeavor to be concise. LOL. As you are probably aware this is a subject that I have spent decades determing already. NOTE: I DO NOT PRETEND to be right!!!

Sunstone said:
So how do you define the self?
I define myself as a personality energy essence, ensconced within a three-dimensional framework. My experience of self is multidimensional. By that I mean, I am aware, quite consciously, of aspects of myself that exist in other dimensions AS ME in THAT dimension of reality. This is a tab difficult to explain. I DO NOT consider myself to be a physical body, as it is a single manifestation of my larger self. That physical manifestation of self is a completely autonomous entity, but by following its own path it converges with the whole. It is when one is not following their own will that divisions occur in the psyche.

Sunstone said:
What precisely is the self?

Easy one. The self is energy or perhaps an energy matrix, however this is not the "energy" that is commonly thought of and perhaps a new word for it should be coined.

Sunstone said:
Is the self the same as consciousness?
No, not in the strictest sense. Consciousness is an attribute of personality.

Sunstone said:
When you think of yourself do you think of your conscious awareness as yourself?
Same idea, different words. Imho, consciousness is like an aperture of a lens. Consciousness dilates. My sense of self does not dilate, but seem to simply grow. It does not seem to shrink.

Sunstone said:
Is the self something beyond consciousness? Does it transcend what you can be consciously aware of?
Yes, that mirrors my experience well. Often it has taken me some years to "digest" a given experience. It is sort of like watching a movie and not "getting it" only to figure out a plot twist days later. Personally you witnessed the event or perceived the event somewhat uncomprehending. It does take time to filter it through the various check and balances of understanding or conscious awareness, though.

Sunstone said:
Is the self transitory or permanent? Is it ever changing, or is their something essential about it that never changes?
This is were I part company with Buddhists. I do not believe in the annihilation of self. I am willing to go along with an alteration of a sense of what "self" is however. In my terms, self is permanent. The physical body is temporary.

Sunstone said:
What relationship is there, if any, between the self and such things as greed, lust, gluttony, etc.?
There most certainly is. Imho, abnormal degrees of greed, lust etc are symptomatic of an unfullfilled need. The real need is not be given the time of day and so the focus personality, the physical self, overcompensates with whatever "floats their boat". Self worth is a biggy here.

Sunstone said:
Is the self naturally grasping? Does it naturally tend to aggrandize itself?
Yes and no. Yes, in the respect that people have tendency to equate "self" with what is actually the "ego". You are not your ego, although the ego is on the "front lines" of directly dealing with physical reality. The ego is but an aspect of "larger" personality and here I support some of the thinking of Carl Jung. No in the sense that the real self has little need to aggrandise itself as it is tremendously secure in its own reality. Insecurity is an ego problem based on the realization of its own finite nature.

I remember years ago, a young lady commented on several occaisions, "Paul, you have no ego and so...." I remember eventually getting quite annoyed with this, as it is an illusion to think that you can vanquish the ego and become ego-less. What I tried to explain is that the ego, as I see it, is like a potentially dangerous dog. You have to treat it with love and compassion. You also have to be aware of when the tail is wagging the real dog, as it were. To the wise, it should be readily apparent when the ego is wagging the "dog", but with care and understanding it should just lap up every lick of reality it can. You are after all, its "master" and the ego should be your most faithful friend.

Sunstone said:
Can the self be transcended?{/quote]
Oh yes. Without being glib Sunstone, you are transcending yourself at every moment, with every breath. Reality is an ever expanding sphere of awareness.

Sunstone said:
Is the self in some sense a cause of suffering? If so, in what sense is that?
As stated, it is not the self, it is the overidentification with the ego AS self that causes people problems. Ego AS self is an illusion. The ego is a tool that directly interfaces with physical reality. It is not the king of the castle.
 

choirboy

Member
Self is illusionary and does not exist. However it does exist because we think it exists.

ALSO

Self is a compilation of ideas that we use to form an identity. This identity controls how we respond to experiences such as questions on this forum. I think identity is the overriding influence in how we respond to things. Not rationality.
 

Willamena

Just me
Premium Member
cardero said:
What Is the Self?
The self is the religion that says; we are the same but this is why we are different.
That's very clever. Whether it's yours or a quote, thank you for posting it. (Frubals)
 

TommyN

New Member
Isn't it true that the self is a mind formed by knowledge taught to us by many teachers. These teachers use knowledge to mold our minds into the same. Some of these teachers we inherit and some come from the world. The self mind is a fragmented, relative, window through which we view and react to existence. How ever the Truth is the true teacher and the mind behind it all and to whom once we are submitted we become one with the Truth. This is what Jesus was explaining when he said I speak and do nothing on my own initiative but what I see the Father do I do and what I hear the Father say I say. Therefore when you saw him you saw the works of God. We can be and do the same.
 

Engyo

Prince of Dorkness!
What is the self?

Impermanent.

A temporary integration of the Five Aggregates.

The seat of the ego.
 

Ozzie

Well-Known Member
Engyo said:
What is the self?

Impermanent.

A temporary integration of the Five Aggregates.

The seat of the ego.
Agreed. But is the natural perception of solidified self (that we all share) against Buddhism, or non-Buddhist in some way? I think natural perception of self as an identity is important functionally, and is a harmless concept as long as its illusory qualities are understood also. What should be the approach to teaching children Buddhist notions of impermanence when applied to the self concept? I would like to transmit some of what I know in this regard to my own kids, but have not because I think this would confuse/scare them somehow. In addition, they might feel their old man is stark raving mad:eek:
 

Rolling_Stone

Well-Known Member
What is the self? The self is where the disconnected threads in the Great Web of Life meet. Or, to put it anothere way, God is the light on the other side of the cosmic prism and the "self" (or soul) is where the spectra of his light is rejoining in His likeness.
 

Cynic

Well-Known Member
So how do you define the self? What precisely is the self?

I support mind/brain identity. I don't define the self as distinct from the body. The body is the soul, and the soul the body. They are just semantically different (i.e. subject/object).

According to Dr. Ramachandran, there are five aspects of self, all of which emerges from the brain:
Continuity: Memory (I.E. past, present, and future.)
Coherence of Self: We experience ourselves as one person.
Embodiment and Ownership: We feel anchored to our bodies.
Free Will.
Self Awareness.

I am going to discuss the aspect of Embodiment and ownership:
The brain creates a "body-image," by mapping out the body on the somatosensory cortex. This is just one value to the formula that equates to the self.

from another thread:
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cynic said:
Despite what you have been told in high school, we have more than five senses. Proprioception and kinesthesis is a "hidden" sense that we take for granted. It is the sense of body position and movement, which emerges from the somatosensory cortex of the parietal lobes. Vision and the vestibular system contribute to a sense of body as well.

In Oliver Sach's book "The Man Who Mistook His Wife for a Hat," (1985) he describes one of his patients who suffered from an infection in her spinal fluid. The result was a loss of proprioception, which created a dreadful sense of disembodiment.

Now consider vision and the representation of the visual field in the brain. Your entire field of vision is mapped out in the lateral geniculate nucleus of the thalamus and the visual cortex. We have a "theater" in the mind. The neurons in these cortical and subcortical regions fire to represent everything we see.

Analogically, the somatosensory cortex maps out the entire body, creating a body-image. These neurons fire to represent every part of your body, and is responsible for not only skin sensation, but proprioception and kinesthesis as well. So, if the rest of your body is somehow disconnected from these neurons (via spinal cord), it would be in a sense similar to ablating the optic nerve that travels to the visual cortex --resulting in blindness. However in this case, there is no active neural representation of the body. This is hard to imagine, as in the case of the "disembodied woman." It is better explained in her own words: "This 'proprioception' is like the eyes of the body, the way the body sees itself. And if it goes, as it's gone with me, it's like the body's blind."

I should note the phenomenon of Phantom Limb Syndrome. Phantom limb occurs in many amputees. Although the physical limb is no longer there, the sense of proprioception and kinesthesis remain intact. Even people who are born without arms can sense the pointing of a phantom finger.
[/FONT]

Every neuron in your brain fires to represent a specific aspect of subjective reality, whether it is your body-image, or an image of the three dimensional world around you. Ablation to groups of neurons will significantly alter ones perception of reality. Even the sense of self-existence emerges from the brain. This seems to cease in Cotards Syndrome, or Depersonalization Disorder. We all have moments of depersonalization, when we feel as though we are not really there; as if we were viewing ourselves in the third person.

Electrical stimulation of the angular gyrus causes an out-of-body experience, where one feels themselves floating outside of their body. My assumption is that the angular gyrus is somehow responsible for anchoring the "body-image" to our actual bodies, with the help of visual feedback.

Is the self the same as consciousness?
The words can be synonymous and are inter-changeable, but I believe their is a slight distinction. I believe many animals are conscious and aware, however are not capable of a self-metarepresentation, or self-schema, therefore are not capable of self-awareness or self reflection like a human being.

When you think of yourself do you think of your conscious awareness as yourself? Is the self something beyond consciousness? Does it transcend what you can be consciously aware of?
I think conscious awareness as an integral value in a formula that equates to the totality of my being.

Is the self transitory or permanent? Is it ever changing, or is their something essential about it that never changes?
The self is in a constant state of continual growth. The self dissolves when you sleep, and it will dissolve when you die.

What relationship is there, if any, between the self and such things as greed, lust, gluttony, etc.? Is the self naturally grasping? Does it naturally tend to aggrandize itself?
Our selves revolve entirely around survival. We have multiple drives and instincts, all of which can be profoundly explained with evolutionary psychology.

Can the self be transcended?
It is noted that temporal lobe epilepsy has a correlation to mystical experience. I believe the sense of transcendence also emerges from the brain.
From another aspect; the sense of individuality is illusory. We are pieces of the universe, made up of the elements concocted by exploding stars, of which is a larger whole. The self cannot be separate from the macrocosm that is all of existence. It is from the macrocosm that the self emerges. I believe that "enlightenment" involves one's realization of the self and it's relationship to the whole, a "Oneness" schema if you will.

Is the self in some sense a cause of suffering? If so, in what sense is that?
Suffering is natural and conducive to survival. For example, society is a great source of emotional suffering (creating fear of rejection, loneliness, embarrassment, etc; all of which are conducive to group cohesion.)
We can, however, cause our own suffering in many ways, (I.E. self-hatred, unacceptance of self).
 

doppelganger

Through the Looking Glass
How about this idea?

The "self" is the symbolic entrenchment or concretization of the series of neural processes that integrate sensory input with memory and interpret and respond to pain and pleasure. It is a neural process reinforced by social reality, a combination of an developed biological tendency to imprint an identity in order to use tools of communication for better organizing and responding to stimuli and organizing groups of organisms.
 

doppelganger

Through the Looking Glass
And can "self" be "transcended"? Sure. Drugs, brain damage, sleep, physical deprivation, deep meditation and other spiritual experiences can all alter the neural processes that present themselves in my inner phenomenology as "I am."
 

eudaimonia

Fellowship of Reason
doppelgänger;964278 said:
How about this idea?

The "self" is the symbolic entrenchment or concretization of the series of neural processes that integrate sensory input with memory and interpret and respond to pain and pleasure. It is a neural process reinforced by social reality, a combination of an developed biological tendency to imprint an identity in order to use tools of communication for better organizing and responding to stimuli and organizing groups of organisms.

Sounds fine to me.


eudaimonia,

Mark
 
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