What is the State of Man After Death

[tariqkhwaja]

Assalamualaikum.

During the Christmas holidays of 1896 a Conference of Great Religions was held in which five questions were asked. The second question was "What is the State of Man after death?" The answers given by the Promised Messiah, Mirza Ghulam Ahmad of Qadian to all five questions were prophesized by him to be lauded by the audience. And so it was reported in so many newspapers references of which I can give. The answer to the second question I post below.

The state of man after death is not a new state, only his condition in this life is made manifest more clearly in the next life. Whatever is the true condition of a person with respect to his beliefs and actions, righteous or otherwise, in this life, remains hidden inside him and its poison or its antidote affects his being covertly. In the life after death it will not be so; everything will manifest itself openly. One experiences a specimen of it in a dream. The prevailing condition of the body of the sleeper makes itself manifest in his dream. When he is heading towards high fever he is apt to see fire and flames in his dream, and if he is sickening due to influenza or a severe cold he is apt to find himself floating about in water. Thus, whatever the body is heading for becomes visible in a dream. So one can understand that the same is the way of God with regard to the afterlife. As a dream transmutes our spiritual condition into a physical form, the same will happen in the next life. Our actions and their consequences will be manifested physically in the next life, and whatever we carry hidden within us from this life will all be displayed openly on our countenances in the next life. As a person observes diverse types of manifestations in his dreams but is not conscious that they are only manifestations, and deems them as realities, the same will happen in the next life. Through such manifestations, God will display a new power, a power which is perfect, complete and absolute as He is All Powerful. If we were not to call the conditions of the next life manifestations and were to say that they would be a new creation by Divine power, that would be perfectly correct.​

Obviously, I implore you to read the whole book (which is only about a hundred pages by the way but extremely difficult reading) (and rewarding when read with the honest heart). It is called the Philosophy of the Teachings of Islam. http://www.alislam.org/library/books/Philosophy-of-Teachings-of-Islam.pdf.

 

[reeferreaper]

What is the state of man after death?

What is the state of a goat after death?

They're both dead. Worm food. Bacterial decay. All animals, including HomoSapiens, are the same on inside, and we all experience the same death.

 

[Nessa]

What is the state of man after death?

What is the state of a goat after death?

They're both dead. Worm food. Bacterial decay. All animals, including HomoSapiens, are the same on inside, and we all experience the same death.

All the physical evidence supports reeferreaper assertion.

 

[Storm]

But is the physical all there is? What can physical evidence tell us of an immaterial soul? How would we go about testing for it?

 

[oldcajun]

Assalamualaikum.

During the Christmas holidays of 1896 a Conference of Great Religions was held in which five questions were asked. The second question was "What is the State of Man after death?" The answers given by the Promised Messiah, Mirza Ghulam Ahmad of Qadian to all five questions were prophesized by him to be lauded by the audience. And so it was reported in so many newspapers references of which I can give. The answer to the second question I post below.



Obviously, I implore you to read the whole book (which is only about a hundred pages by the way but extremely difficult reading) (and rewarding when read with the honest heart). It is called the Philosophy of the Teachings of Islam. http://www.alislam.org/library/books/Philosophy-of-Teachings-of-Islam.pdf.

Sleep until the resurrection is biblical.

 

[Nessa]

But is the physical all there is? What can physical evidence tell us of an immaterial soul? How would we go about testing for it?

I cannot prove or disprove a soul as a separate entity. I've seen some arguments for the existence of a soul but I did not find them compelling.

 

[Dunemeister]

Sleep until the resurrection is biblical.

Actually, after death, the righteous (at least) are conscious. Jesus told the insurrectionist on the cross beside him, "Today, you will be with me in Paradise." It was obviously meant as an encouragement, but it's hard to see how that could be encouraging if there wouldn't be any experience. It's also important to note that "Paradise" is not the same as what christians call "heaven." Christian revelation says that God will eventually "resurrect" the universe in an analogous way to which humans will one day be resurrected literally. That is, God will infuse all of creation with his divine life, and in so doing, he will give dead humans new and glorified bodies.

So Christians hold to a two-stage theory of life after death. There's life after death (Paradise), and then there's life after life after death (resurrected and very much physically embodied life on a renewed earth).

 

[tariqkhwaja]

are the same on inside, and we all experience the same death.

Same on the inside? Can animals think? Do they ponder over their past mistakes and successes? Do they make conscience improvements to their methods? Do they not merely follow instinct? Can they be immoral? Do they have choice?

Animals posses souls as much as humans. But that spirit that gives human a freedom of choice and all the other faculties mentioned in the preceding paragraph. That is what is different between us. And it is that spirit that grows in conscience since our conception in a mother's womb, up to our birth, on to our childhood, teenage years, adulthood until we die. That ever-evolving spirit of choice that animals do not possess. That is what survives.

 

[Storm]

Same on the inside? Can animals think? Do they ponder over their past mistakes and successes? Do they make conscience improvements to their methods? Do they not merely follow instinct? Can they be immoral? Do they have choice?

Animals posses souls as much as humans. But that spirit that gives human a freedom of choice and all the other faculties mentioned in the preceding paragraph. That is what is different between us. And it is that spirit that grows in conscience since our conception in a mother's womb, up to our birth, on to our childhood, teenage years, adulthood until we die. That ever-evolving spirit of choice that animals do not possess. That is what survives.

This is essentially asking if animals are sapient, and I believe some might well be. Elephants, fellow primates, certain whales... we can't know for sure (yet), but they all display certain behaviors that make me lean toward the stance that they're probably sapient.

I don't understand, however, your assertion that sapience - which is only a certain quality of consciousness - is immortal while the soul is not. I'm probably misunderstanding you, I guess. Could you clarify?

 

[Halcyon]

The OP seems to be less of a debate question, and more of an advertisement for a book.

Perhaps this would be better placed in the Ahmeddiyya DIR, if it exists, and if it doesn't exist maybe one should be created and this thread put into it.

 

[Nessa]

Same on the inside? Can animals think?
.

Yes, animals think, some have IQ's that are the equivalent of a four or five year old Human. Actually, humans are animals.

Do they ponder over their past mistakes and successes? Do they make conscience improvements to their methods? Do they not merely follow instinct?

They seemingly learn. I have taught pets proper and improper behaviour. And I can teach pets tricks.

Can they be immoral?

Immorality is subjective but there is evidence of pack animals having social rules.

Animals posses souls as much as humans. But that spirit that gives human a freedom of choice and all the other faculties mentioned in the preceding paragraph. That is what is different between us. And it is that spirit that grows in conscience since our conception in a mother's womb, up to our birth, on to our childhood, teenage years, adulthood until we die. That ever-evolving spirit of choice that animals do not possess. That is what survives

I'm going to remind you that Humans are considered animals. And I've shown you that animals can think and learn. And animals are also conceived in their mother's womb.

 

[reeferreaper]

we don't have souls.

Do animals make conscience improvements to their methods? Yes. There are groups of primates, beyond HomoSapiens, in the wild that make spears. Did you know that? Sounds like a conscience method to me.

Animals actually do have a choice. Primates that have been taught sign language have some scary things to "say". They communicated to us that their primary wish was to be free from captivity. That's sounds like a choice to me.

The capacity of our brain is more complex than most animals, without a doubt. The amount of neurons that we have in comparison to the average animal, isn't even close. That being said, however, has nothing to do with a soul.

Just because you don't understand the biomechanism, doesnt mean that we possess some magical parallel existence.

The human EGO invented the soul.

 

[McBell]

Same on the inside?

P\retty much, yes.

Can animals think?

Yes

Do they ponder over their past mistakes and successes?

yes

Do they make conscience improvements to their methods?

yes

Do they not merely follow instinct?

Nope.

Can they be immoral?

Moral and immoral are merely terms to describe the right and wrong of an action.

Do they have choice?

Seems to me that they have many more choices than most people...

Animals posses souls as much as humans. But that spirit that gives human a freedom of choice and all the other faculties mentioned in the preceding paragraph. That is what is different between us. And it is that spirit that grows in conscience since our conception in a mother's womb, up to our birth, on to our childhood, teenage years, adulthood until we die. That ever-evolving spirit of choice that animals do not possess. That is what survives.

I disagree.
But I suspect that we will have to agree to disagree.

 

[Storm]

we don't have souls.

...

The human EGO invented the soul.

How do you know?

 

[reeferreaper]

Storm, what is the definition of a soul?

 

[Storm]

Usually, the immaterial essence of a person, much akin to a supernatuaralized personality.

Now, we don't know each other, so let me point out that I dn't believe in any such thing myself.

My point is, you can't KNOW it doesn't exist. That's an opinion, and for most of us, it's one based on our larger worldview.

 

[reeferreaper]

What you call the immaterial existence of you and I are nothing more than a set of bio-chemical reactions. The virtually infinite communication and paths of the communication are what makes you a person.

The physical world is all there ever has been, or will be. Those of us who do not believe have nothing to prove. If you choose to believe, you are pulling random ideas from nothing. Unfortunately, because of the nature of the situation, the burden of proof lies with those who believe it does exist.

 

[Storm]

What you call the immaterial existence of you and I are nothing more than a set of bio-chemical reactions. The virtually infinite communication and paths of the communication are what makes you a person.

So you assume. You have no proof.

The physical world is all there ever has been, or will be.

Prove it.

Those of us who do not believe have nothing to prove. If you choose to believe, you are pulling random ideas from nothing. Unfortunately, because of the nature of the situation, the burden of proof lies with those who believe it does exist.

Ah, no. You make an assertion of fact, aka positive claim, you take up the burden of proof. That's how it works. You've made positive claim, I've challenged it, it's up to you to back up your claims. It's not up to me to prove them wrong, because I haven't made positve claim.

That's twice in one day that someone's tried to shift the burden on me....

 

[reeferreaper]

I have no proof, you are correct.

I do have one hell of an education, and that is good enough for my publisher. Nothing more to say here, so I'll move to another thread.

 

[Storm]

I have no proof, you are correct.

Thank you.

I do have one hell of an education, and that is good enough for my publisher. Nothing more to say here, so I'll move to another thread.

Well, bully for you. What exactly was the point of that?