What is the threshold for labeling a religious belief as a “delusion”?

[an anarchist]

I’m in therapy specifically for my schizophrenia. A focus of the therapy is going to be my religious thoughts and beliefs, as they are labeled as “delusional“. I do wonder what the difference is between my beliefs and say that of a run of the mill Christian church pastor. Like, how come the pastor isn’t in therapy but I am. Rather, the pastor is encouraged in his beliefs and even paid to spread them. He is labeled as an earnest righteous man, while I am labeled as delusional. I want to understand what the difference is. It seems to be that you have to believe in an already culturally established religious system or else you are “delusional”.

I was called by God to spread the message. The pastor has the same back story. He was “called“ by God to spread the message. He is praised and I am a cause of concern. I do not understand.

Christians talk to God all the time. Sheesh they speak in tongues (complete gibberish imo) and I’m the crazy one!?

 

[Quintessence]

First and foremost, whether or not the belief is "religious" is entirely irrelevant.

As far as I'm aware, the baseline standard for diagnosing mental illnesses hasn't changed that much in some decades. That is, something is a diagnosable mental illness if it is causing significant disruption in that person's life or those persons around them. And is something done by trained professionals.

 

[Eddi]

I've thought similar things to this

It's got nothing to do with the actual content of the beliefs, merely the manner and extent to which they are held

Also, safety in numbers

 

[an anarchist]

First and foremost, whether or not the belief is "religious" is entirely irrelevant.

As far as I'm aware, the baseline standard for diagnosing mental illnesses hasn't changed that much in some decades. That is, something is a diagnosable mental illness if it is causing significant disruption in that person's life or those persons around them. And is something done by trained professionals.

I think the concept of diagnosing delusion is complicated. Based on your reply, I think perhaps it would be fair to say that those Christians who burnt "witches" at the stake were delusional. Their religious beliefs caused significant disruption to those around them.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

I’m in therapy specifically for my schizophrenia. A focus of the therapy is going to be my religious thoughts and beliefs, as they are labeled as “delusional“. I do wonder what the difference is between my beliefs and say that of a run of the mill Christian church pastor. Like, how come the pastor isn’t in therapy but I am. Rather, the pastor is encouraged in his beliefs and even paid to spread them. He is labeled as an earnest righteous man, while I am labeled as delusional. I want to understand what the difference is. It seems to be that you have to believe in an already culturally established religious system or else you are “delusional”.

I was called by God to spread the message. The pastor has the same back story. He was “called“ by God to spread the message. He is praised and I am a cause of concern. I do not understand.

Christians talk to God all the time. Sheesh they speak in tongues (complete gibberish imo) and I’m the crazy one!?

I suggest listening to your therapist, and nobody else (including me, which makes this advice of not much worth). Nobody here is qualified to suggest that you are delusional or not -- nor whether your pastor is, either. We're not qualified to say whether your pastor is just a good salesman who has the ability to seel his "product."

Listen to your therapist. Please. If you trust him or her.

 

[an anarchist]

I suggest listening to your therapist, and nobody else (including me, which makes this advice of not much worth). Nobody here is qualified to suggest that you are delusional or not -- nor whether your pastor is, either. We're not qualified to say whether your pastor is just a good salesman who has the ability to seel his "product."

Listen to your therapist. Please. If you trust him or her.

Yea the reason I made this thread is because I’m impatient lol. I just started with this therapist, so I don't have the answers to my questions yet. So I ask aloud. But with time, I’m sure I’ll get to the bottom of it.

But absent of my particular case though, I still think it’s an interesting thread topic.

 

[sun rise]

I’m in therapy specifically for my schizophrenia. A focus of the therapy is going to be my religious thoughts and beliefs, as they are labeled as “delusional“....

Christians talk to God all the time. Sheesh they speak in tongues (complete gibberish imo) and I’m the crazy one!?

That's a really deep and tricky question especially currently given how many false beliefs people are wedded to.

I was called by God to spread the message.

I'm not asking you to answer because it might be better to work on this in therapy.

But questions I would have are "how were you called - a feeling? An impulse? A voice? How do you know it was God? What is the nature of the message? How were you told to spread the message? What are the symptoms of your schizophrenia? Did the call come during a flare up of the symptoms? Was part of it a message that you are particularly special? What specifically about your thoughts & beliefs is being labeled as delusional?

Christians talk to God all the time.

Prayer is talking to God and many pray including non-Christians.

 

[sun rise]

I still think it’s an interesting thread topic.

It is interesting to me. In India there are holy ones that in look and behavior are not different from those with mental illness. Knowing which are which is totally not simple.

 

[We Never Know]

I’m in therapy specifically for my schizophrenia. A focus of the therapy is going to be my religious thoughts and beliefs, as they are labeled as “delusional“. I do wonder what the difference is between my beliefs and say that of a run of the mill Christian church pastor. Like, how come the pastor isn’t in therapy but I am. Rather, the pastor is encouraged in his beliefs and even paid to spread them. He is labeled as an earnest righteous man, while I am labeled as delusional. I want to understand what the difference is. It seems to be that you have to believe in an already culturally established religious system or else you are “delusional”.

I was called by God to spread the message. The pastor has the same back story. He was “called“ by God to spread the message. He is praised and I am a cause of concern. I do not understand.

Christians talk to God all the time. Sheesh they speak in tongues (complete gibberish imo) and I’m the crazy one!?

If someone believes something in their mind, what criteria do we use to classify some as delusions and some not delusions?

 

[Bthoth]

I’m in therapy specifically for my schizophrenia. A focus of the therapy is going to be my religious thoughts and beliefs, as they are labeled as “delusional“. I do wonder what the difference is between my beliefs and say that of a run of the mill Christian church pastor. Like, how come the pastor isn’t in therapy but I am. Rather, the pastor is encouraged in his beliefs and even paid to spread them. He is labeled as an earnest righteous man, while I am labeled as delusional. I want to understand what the difference is. It seems to be that you have to believe in an already culturally established religious system or else you are “delusional”.

I was called by God to spread the message. The pastor has the same back story. He was “called“ by God to spread the message. He is praised and I am a cause of concern. I do not understand.

Christians talk to God all the time. Sheesh they speak in tongues (complete gibberish imo) and I’m the crazy one!?

The delusional claim a god wrote the material.

Skipping the fact that mankind created the languages, words and writing.

I talk to god all the time. but im so deaf, i never get an answer or as some claim, i dont know the language.

 

[sun rise]

If someone believes something in their mind, what criteria do we use to classify some as delusions and some not delusions?

There is research on that topic. Personally given the number of people that have the delusion that, for example, Trump won in 2020, we either label millions as mentally ill or go beyond delusions to ask what impact the delusion has on someone's life and the lives of others and whether or not the delusion is making them a danger to themselves or others.

Take "God spoke to me".

If I further say "not in words" but in a deep feeling with the unspoken message that I should be more loving and forgiving some would say "delusion" and some would say "wonderful". Whether or not this is objectively true is to me not important. What is important is that it's a positive message along with a sense of being loved.

If I further say "I heard God speak in a voice" and he told me that I had to eliminate evil by killing people, that's entirely different. Or, not going that far, that God told me that the fate of the world rested solely on my hands then that too is something I'd call an unhelpful delusion.

 

[Jimmy]

All Christian’s believe Jesus physically rose from the grave. Is it delusional if it’s true? Take it from there.

 

[Jimmy]

First and foremost, whether or not the belief is "religious" is entirely irrelevant.

As far as I'm aware, the baseline standard for diagnosing mental illnesses hasn't changed that much in some decades. That is, something is a diagnosable mental illness if it is causing significant disruption in that person's life or those persons around them. And is something done by trained professionals.

Absolutely! I’ve believed the world began around 1980 for the past fifteen yrs. and it hasn’t caused significant disruption in mine or anyone else’s life. Rock on with your “delusion”

 

[Heyo]

I’m in therapy specifically for my schizophrenia. A focus of the therapy is going to be my religious thoughts and beliefs, as they are labeled as “delusional“.

Interesting. According to the current reading of the DSM V religious delusions are exempted from diagnose. If they divert from that path, I'm all for it.

I do wonder what the difference is between my beliefs and say that of a run of the mill Christian church pastor. Like, how come the pastor isn’t in therapy but I am. Rather, the pastor is encouraged in his beliefs and even paid to spread them. He is labeled as an earnest righteous man, while I am labeled as delusional. I want to understand what the difference is. It seems to be that you have to believe in an already culturally established religious system or else you are “delusional”.

Yeah, that seems to be the difference. Labelling half the population as delusional was probably what led to the exception. But diagnosing unorthodox religious beliefs as delusional doesn't threaten the status quo.

I was called by God to spread the message. The pastor has the same back story. He was “called“ by God to spread the message. He is praised and I am a cause of concern. I do not understand.

Christians talk to God all the time. Sheesh they speak in tongues (complete gibberish imo) and I’m the crazy one!?

"If you talk to God, you are praying; If God talks to you, you have schizophrenia." - Thomas Szasz
.

 

[SalixIncendium]

I'd draw the line at the point the beliefs begin to negatively impact your life or the lives of others by way of psychotic tendencies or behaviors resulting in a deficiency in, loss of contact with, or inability to function in reality.

I'm not a licensed psychiatrist, psychologist, or therapist.

 

[ajay0]

I’m in therapy specifically for my schizophrenia. A focus of the therapy is going to be my religious thoughts and beliefs, as they are labeled as “delusional“. I do wonder what the difference is between my beliefs and say that of a run of the mill Christian church pastor. Like, how come the pastor isn’t in therapy but I am. Rather, the pastor is encouraged in his beliefs and even paid to spread them. He is labeled as an earnest righteous man, while I am labeled as delusional. I want to understand what the difference is. It seems to be that you have to believe in an already culturally established religious system or else you are “delusional”.

I was called by God to spread the message. The pastor has the same back story. He was “called“ by God to spread the message. He is praised and I am a cause of concern. I do not understand.

Christians talk to God all the time. Sheesh they speak in tongues (complete gibberish imo) and I’m the crazy one!?

Imho, there is a lot of focus on the Devil and demons as well as the theme of eternal hell-fire in Christianity, much more than other religions except for perhaps Islam.

I know of a Christian lady who was put in a mental hospital for excessive fear of the Devil.

In earlier medieval times, the images of the Devil and hell-fire were perhaps used as tools to scare Christians from vicious conduct like theft, murder, rape or socially unacceptable behavior.

But excessive fear instilled by religious and social conditioning is also bound to be unhealthy.

There are notions of hells in Hinduism and Buddhism, but they are not of an eternal nature, and their duration only corresponds to the negative karmas performed. All sentient beings are considered to have the auspicious Self or Buddha nature within, and vices are considered to be aberrations due to lack of self-knowledge.

 

[vijeno]

I do wonder what the difference is between my beliefs and say that of a run of the mill Christian church pastor.

1. An issue is worthy of therapy if it creates problems for the person and/or the people around them.
2. A belief is delusional if it contradicts evidence.

The two are not necessarily related. The pastor probably has no problems from his beliefs, rather makes his living off them, because his social group also shares those beliefs and reinforces them, and they don't clash with his daily duties. So even if they are deluded, they are not worthy of therapy.

 

[ChristineM]

I'd draw the line at the point the beliefs begins to negatively impact your life or the lives of others by way of psychotic tendencies or behaviors resulting in a deficiency in, loss of contact with, or inability to function in reality.

I'm not a licensed psychiatrist, psychologist, or therapist.

^^^ THIS ^^^
Being a remote carer for a schizophrenic who has just spent several weeks sectioned (hospitalist) under the mental health act i completely agree with @SalixIncendium post

 

[wellwisher]

Yea the reason I made this thread is because I’m impatient lol. I just started with this therapist, so I don't have the answers to my questions yet. So I ask aloud. But with time, I’m sure I’ll get to the bottom of it.

But absent of my particular case though, I still think it’s an interesting thread topic.

In many religions, with deities, there are helpful and harmful spirits; Jesus and Satan. The helpful spirits can make life better while the harmful spirits can make life more difficult. In both psychology and religion, helpful and harmful is one line in the sand. The psychologist will use therapy and the Priest may use Confession or perform an Exorcism, if the harmful spirits are disrupting a healthy life. The witch doctor does the same if the harmful spirits are inducing loss of soul; ego dissolves. He will try to jumpstart the ego and get the person back in touch with their energy and will.

In terms of schizophrenia, if you had a small child with an imaginary friend or a bogeyman in the closet, this could be classified as schizophrenia, but it is not. It is not characterized, as such, until the child reaches a certain age. Why that line in the sand? Why is a natural development process of the child's brain treated as natural, but only up to a certain age, then become taboo? It is OK for a child to believe in Santa Claus, but after a certain age it becomes taboo. Again, why that line in the sand, if Santa Claus brings joy?

It has to do with the development of the ego and the repression of the inner self. The inner self and related unconscious processes are more conscious in the child, with their ego center just starting to develop. The inner self is creating a platform with firmware, helping to mold the child's ego into its image; natural child. Culture appears to want to break the connection to the inner self, so the superego of culture can play the role of inner self; only what is outside is now good; knowledge of social good and evil.

Religions and psychology both try to create a better balance between the inner and outer person; inner self and ego, with the inner self projected through collective symbolism; religions and psychology orientations. The inner self is genetic based and is common to all humans, defining our common human nature; key to a healthy and happy life.

One main difference between psychology and religion is the way the inner self is projected by each. Religion projects the inner self onto Gods, which are higher than human. This symbolizes acknowledgment of the higher human potential that exists within the inner self; has access to the central processing areas of the brain. Psychology does not try to create this connection to higher human potential, but rather is content to help the ego better exist in the superego of culture. Higher human potential can become disruptive to the games and superstitions of the superego.

 

[Koldo]

I’m in therapy specifically for my schizophrenia. A focus of the therapy is going to be my religious thoughts and beliefs, as they are labeled as “delusional“. I do wonder what the difference is between my beliefs and say that of a run of the mill Christian church pastor. Like, how come the pastor isn’t in therapy but I am. Rather, the pastor is encouraged in his beliefs and even paid to spread them. He is labeled as an earnest righteous man, while I am labeled as delusional. I want to understand what the difference is. It seems to be that you have to believe in an already culturally established religious system or else you are “delusional”.

I was called by God to spread the message. The pastor has the same back story. He was “called“ by God to spread the message. He is praised and I am a cause of concern. I do not understand.

Christians talk to God all the time. Sheesh they speak in tongues (complete gibberish imo) and I’m the crazy one!?

I agree with you. If you can hear God talking to you, you have 2 alternatives:

1) Never mention it to anyone, and just live your life.
2) Find followers that will support you.

If you can't find followers that will support you, just stick to #1.