What is the threshold for labeling a religious belief as a “delusion”?

[SalixIncendium]

Why have you changed it from delusion to beliefs?
Are they one and the same to you?
Or perhaps the problem is that you call negative impact beliefs delusions?

A delusion is a delusion, right?

Why is it you conflate delusion with belief?

I changed nothing, nor did I conflate anything. Go back and read your own words. They're in the post just prior to the one I quoted here.

 

[Aupmanyav]

answer to op: imho, belief in a god or some one dispatched by him on a mission is delusional, as also is the denial of science.
if you believe that you have been called by a god, then i will consider that as a delusion. i hope the therapy is successful for you.

 

[osgart]

Delusion impacts function, understanding basic reality, social, and physical existence.

When beliefs and convictions do not impact those areas they are not delusions.

There are beliefs and convictions that do no damage or harm to anyone and shouldn't be considered delusion.

Imo delusion is impairment.

False religion held sincerely is self deception not delusion. People function at high levels while also being fundamentalists, and false religion adherents. Not to be confused with mental illness caused by delusion. That's how I see that!

 

[PureX]

I’m in therapy specifically for my schizophrenia. A focus of the therapy is going to be my religious thoughts and beliefs, as they are labeled as “delusional“. I do wonder what the difference is between my beliefs and say that of a run of the mill Christian church pastor. Like, how come the pastor isn’t in therapy but I am. Rather, the pastor is encouraged in his beliefs and even paid to spread them. He is labeled as an earnest righteous man, while I am labeled as delusional. I want to understand what the difference is. It seems to be that you have to believe in an already culturally established religious system or else you are “delusional”.

I was called by God to spread the message. The pastor has the same back story. He was “called“ by God to spread the message. He is praised and I am a cause of concern. I do not understand.

Christians talk to God all the time. Sheesh they speak in tongues (complete gibberish imo) and I’m the crazy one!?

If I were in your situation, I would forgo religion all together. Mostly because I think it is designed in such a way that it will fuel you delusional propensity.

I am an alcoholic. So I have to avoid the use of alcohol entirely because I will become addicted to it's effect on my mind, and therefor lose the ability to make proper decisions once I come inder the influence of the alcoholic effect. And the only sure way to avoid that happening is to simply avoid ever drinking alcohol.

OTHER peple can drink alcohol and not fall into an addiction, or lose their ability to make reasonable decisions relating to the effect that alcohol has on them. But I cannot.

Religions tend to encourage a lot of fantasy, and magical thinking, and that is probably a very dangerous thing for a schizophrenic to participate in. Others can do it without much negative effect because they can more easily recognize the line between delusion and reality. But you can't. So it might be wise to simply avoid engaging with religion, completely. If it were me, I would focus of very pragmatic ethical concerns, instead. And avoid any invitation or inclination into any sort of religious fantasy.

 

[McBell]

I changed nothing, nor did I conflate anything. Go back and read your own words. They're in the post just prior to the one I quoted here.

Hmmm...
Seems I did in fact interchange the two.
My apologies.
That was not my intent.

 

[SalixIncendium]

Hmmm...
Seems I did in fact interchange the two.
My apologies.
That was not my intent.

No worries.

 

[sun rise]

the era a prophets is now over

Not according to the East.

belief in a god or some one dispatched by him on a mission is delusional

Thus opines the atheist. By your definition I'm delusional because I'm convinced Meher Baba is the Avatar of the age, God in human form, and that his mission for me is to overcome my lower nature and become more loving.

 

[bobhikes]

I’m in therapy specifically for my schizophrenia. A focus of the therapy is going to be my religious thoughts and beliefs, as they are labeled as “delusional“. I do wonder what the difference is between my beliefs and say that of a run of the mill Christian church pastor. Like, how come the pastor isn’t in therapy but I am. Rather, the pastor is encouraged in his beliefs and even paid to spread them. He is labeled as an earnest righteous man, while I am labeled as delusional. I want to understand what the difference is. It seems to be that you have to believe in an already culturally established religious system or else you are “delusional”.

I was called by God to spread the message. The pastor has the same back story. He was “called“ by God to spread the message. He is praised and I am a cause of concern. I do not understand.

Christians talk to God all the time. Sheesh they speak in tongues (complete gibberish imo) and I’m the crazy one!?

I would say it is about how you go about spreading the message. A priest has a church and dresses a certain way to be identifiable people can approach him. In a normal day he does not actively pursue people to the religion. The priest may be at sponsored events interacting with people but never forcing his views upon others. If you are actively pursuing people, if you are forcing interactions, if you do not take no for an answer then you probably are delusional. Your delusion is not your religion but your belief that you need the force the world to care.

 

[Heyo]

Labeling any and all incorrect beliefs as a delusion would indicate a misunderstanding of the term delusion in my opinion.

Incorrect beliefs aren't delusions, nobody claims that.
"A delusion is a false fixed belief that is not amenable to change in light of conflicting evidence." - Delusion - Wikipedia

And as we are at possible confusions: a delusion is still a delusion even if doesn't conflict with daily functioning. But a delusion is only worthy of therapy when it does impact the patient's life or that of people around them.
I.e. you can be delusional and mentally healthy at the same time.

I'm not a psychologist, psychiatrist, or other mental health professional.

Neither am I, just an interested layman.

 

[LuisDantas]

Social acceptance is very much decisive, unfortunately.

But there is also a very pragmatic consideration of how much harmony (or lack of same) there is with the social environment.

If those do not seem to be very independent or very objective parameters, I will say that it probably is because they are not.

 

[an anarchist]

If I were in your situation, I would forgo religion all together. Mostly because I think it is designed in such a way that it will fuel you delusional propensity.

I am an alcoholic. So I have to avoid the use of alcohol entirely because I will become addicted to it's effect on my mind, and therefor lose the ability to make proper decisions once I come inder the influence of the alcoholic effect. And the only sure way to avoid that happening is to simply avoid ever drinking alcohol.

OTHER peple can drink alcohol and not fall into an addiction, or lose their ability to make reasonable decisions relating to the effect that alcohol has on them. But I cannot.

Religions tend to encourage a lot of fantasy, and magical thinking, and that is probably a very dangerous thing for a schizophrenic to participate in. Others can do it without much negative effect because they can more easily recognize the line between delusion and reality. But you can't. So it might be wise to simply avoid engaging with religion, completely. If it were me, I would focus of very pragmatic ethical concerns, instead. And avoid any invitation or inclination into any sort of religious fantasy.

Yea that is something I have been working on and actively pursuing. Forgoing religion. It‘s a bit tricky, but I can decide what I believe in. In the metaphysical or strictly the physical.

Forgoing religion entirely is an option I am going to go over in full with the therapist in the coming weeks. Might even leave this site in order to remove all religious stimuli out of my head, I’m not sure.

 

[MikeF]

Incorrect beliefs aren't delusions, nobody claims that.

"A delusion is a false fixed belief that is not amenable to change in light of conflicting evidence." - Delusion - Wikipedia

And as we are at possible confusions: a delusion is still a delusion even if doesn't conflict with daily functioning. But a delusion is only worthy of therapy when it does impact the patient's life or that of people around them.
I.e. you can be delusional and mentally healthy at the same time.

As referenced in your link, the term delusion refers to a mental pathology. Some comments do not seem to make that distinction. Mere religious belief certainly does not qualify as delusion in my opinion, nor meet the full definition described in your link. For example:

I do wonder what the difference is between my beliefs and say that of a run of the mill Christian church pastor.

belief in a god or some one dispatched by him on a mission is delusional

Probably we’re all subject to degrees of delusion:

I would also suggest that if delusion is a mental pathology it would seem incongruous to say a delusional person is ever mentally healthy. Might be better to say they are delusional but not functionally impaired, for example.

 

[Heyo]

As referenced in your link, the term delusion refers to a mental pathology. Some comments do not seem to make that distinction. Mere religious belief certainly does not qualify as delusion in my opinion, nor meet the full definition described in your link. For example:

The important part is that the belief can't be phased by evidence or arguments. A delusional person, like a conspiracy theorist, would counter evidence by claiming it to be not credible and the source being in on the conspiracy. YEC (who are conspiracy theorists) believe in a conspiracy of all the editors of scientific papers to suppress all articles by YEC "scientists" which "explains" the scientific consensus and let them discard all evidence against their fixed belief.

I would also suggest that if delusion is a mental pathology it would seem incongruous to say a delusional person is ever mentally healthy. Might be better to say they are delusional but not functionally impaired, for example.

Call it how you want, I just wanted to say that delusional people shouldn't be forced into therapy as long as they or others don't suffer due to that delusion.

 

[Dao Hao Now]

I’m in therapy specifically for my schizophrenia. A focus of the therapy is going to be my religious thoughts and beliefs, as they are labeled as “delusional“. I do wonder what the difference is between my beliefs and say that of a run of the mill Christian church pastor. Like, how come the pastor isn’t in therapy but I am. Rather, the pastor is encouraged in his beliefs and even paid to spread them. He is labeled as an earnest righteous man, while I am labeled as delusional. I want to understand what the difference is. It seems to be that you have to believe in an already culturally established religious system or else you are “delusional”.

I was called by God to spread the message. The pastor has the same back story. He was “called“ by God to spread the message. He is praised and I am a cause of concern. I do not understand.

Christians talk to God all the time. Sheesh they speak in tongues (complete gibberish imo) and I’m the crazy one!?

While I don’t know the particulars of your diagnosis, (I would venture to guess that your religious thoughts and beliefs are only a part of the contributing factors?)
based strictly on what you wrote…..
I can sympathize, and would offer a premise of how mainstream (which does not indicate validity) the beliefs of the pastor vs how contrary to mainstream (again not indicative of validity) your beliefs are.
Remember “normal” is predicated on the subjective viewpoint of the majority;
in other words…. the mainstream.

 

[Dao Hao Now]

I would say it is about how you go about spreading the message. A priest has a church and dresses a certain way to be identifiable people can approach him. In a normal day he does not actively pursue people to the religion. The priest may be at sponsored events interacting with people but never forcing his views upon others. If you are actively pursuing people, if you are forcing interactions, if you do not take no for an answer then you probably are delusional. Your delusion is not your religion but your belief that you need the force the world to care.

I find this somewhat humorous.
You and I must live in very different environments;
where I live a large portion of population would qualify as delusional based on your criteria.

 

[Vinayaka]

I’m in therapy specifically for my schizophrenia. A focus of the therapy is going to be my religious thoughts and beliefs, as they are labeled as “delusional“. I do wonder what the difference is between my beliefs and say that of a run of the mill Christian church pastor. Like, how come the pastor isn’t in therapy but I am. Rather, the pastor is encouraged in his beliefs and even paid to spread them. He is labeled as an earnest righteous man, while I am labeled as delusional. I want to understand what the difference is. It seems to be that you have to believe in an already culturally established religious system or else you are “delusional”.

I was called by God to spread the message. The pastor has the same back story. He was “called“ by God to spread the message. He is praised and I am a cause of concern. I do not understand.

Christians talk to God all the time. Sheesh they speak in tongues (complete gibberish imo) and I’m the crazy one!?

Delusion has a double meaning. It has a medical meaning, like that in the term grandiose delusions, and often has other words to further elucidate specific meaning (like grandiose in the above example). It also has a more common meaning in more common use about almost anything that is considered a false belief. Sadly, it can be tossed about as a slur, as "You're deluded!" for the mere case of having a different belief than the person throwing it out. (As in the book 'The God Delusion)

So the two can sometimes be used interchangeably which could cause confusion.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Not according to the East.

By your definition I'm delusional because I'm convinced Meher Baba is the Avatar of the age, God in human form, and that his mission for me is to overcome my lower nature and become more loving.

err .. not in the middle-east. no prophet in east.
yeah, your belief in an incarnated god in my view is delusional. as per your own view, meher baba was not a prophet, he was god incarnate.

 

[bobhikes]

I find this somewhat humorous.
You and I must live in very different environments;
where I live a large portion of population would qualify as delusional based on your criteria.

A portion of the world is delusional. Anyone who believes they can convince the world that their beliefs are the only beliefs valid is delusional to some extent. If they try to enforce it by conquering others, then they are dangerously delusional. History is full of Dangerously delusional people that have tried to enforce their views on others.

 

[MikeF]

A portion of the world is delusional. Anyone who believes they can convince the world that their beliefs are the only beliefs valid is delusional to some extent. If they try to enforce it by conquering others, then they are dangerously delusional. History is full of Dangerously delusional people that have tried to enforce their views on others.

Is it delusion or ignorance?

 

[bobhikes]

Is it delusion or ignorance?

Ignorance implies knowledge of fallacy to argument, yet still proceeding. Delusional implies all knowledge against argument is wrong no matter source or quantity. In my opinion most people are delusional, and they do it by blocking out all contrary opinions. It is hard to be ignorant over the long term, ignorance will usually turn into egotism; whereas it does not matter if it is wrong, I want it and I am all that's important. It is not really delusional as in reality you are all that's important to you.