What is the US interest in Ukraine?

[Kathryn]

Yeah, but anger is a doble edged sword. If it can't be used in practice to change something it can eat you.

Well, thankfully I don't walk around angry. I just get angry when I think about being manipulated. Thankfully that's not very often the case as far as I can tell.

 

[Revoltingest]

Well, thankfully I don't walk around angry. I just get angry when I think about being manipulated. Thankfully that's not very often the case as far as I can tell.

You seem to have durable equanimity.

 

[lukethethird]

So you want to debate this?
Okay, but here it is the standard. If the West could have done something differently we note that. If Ukraine or a sub-division could have done something differently, we note that. If Russia could have done something differently, we note that.

Note this. I have been such debates before, once with a Russian. The end goal was the everybody else had done something wrong but not Russia as according to him.

So here it is. If that is your end position. We the West could have done something differently, so Ukraine, but not Russia, then don't bother.

of course Russia could have done something differently, like not send the troops into Ukraine, which is a war crime, for starters.

 

[Stevicus]

So you want to debate this?
Okay, but here it is the standard. If the West could have done something differently we note that. If Ukraine or a sub-division could have done something differently, we note that. If Russia could have done something differently, we note that.

Note this. I have been such debates before, once with a Russian. The end goal was the everybody else had done something wrong but not Russia as according to him.

So here it is. If that is your end position. We the West could have done something differently, so Ukraine, but not Russia, then don't bother.

I don't know if it's so much a debate about which side is wrong. At least in terms of the fight between Ukraine and Russia, that's really between them and doesn't need to involve anyone else. If you want to root for Ukraine against Russia, then that's your own business. The only real point of contention here is whether this is a threat to the West and whether the West has any reason to get involved in it.

 

[Kathryn]

You seem to have durable equanimity.

Apparently! LOL

 

[wellwisher]

One mistake that is often made when addressing such delicate subjects is to get wrapped in the present headlines, and not look at the past events that brought us to where we are, today. The analogy is someone getting cut with a knife. Instead of looking at the big picture, you only think in terms of the infection you see many days later. The short term view can miss an important point such as the source of the infection. That knife needs to be thrown away, so it does not do this again and again.

Ukraine had been part of the Soviet Union's military firewall, before the collapse of the USSR. It was a forward defensive firewall position for Russia, that buffered Russia from potential invasion via Western Europe. Ukraine had a large stockpile of nuclear weapons for defense. After the Soviet Union fell, there was international worry that someone in Ukraine would fire a nuke, now all possessed by a free Ukraine.

Under the Obama Administration, a deal was struck to remove the nukes from Ukraine, in exchange for protection from Russia. Ukraine was in a delicate position. It would be giving Russian Cold War nukes to the Cold War adversary of Russia; USA and NATO. Obama promised Ukraine protections and future admission into NATO. This made Russia, nervous since now NATO would be on its door step. Obama was in a bind, and renegaded, on the promise to Ukraine, which left Ukraine out to dry. Russia was not very happy with dangling Ukraine.

Former Vice President Biden had been assigned to Ukraine as one of his jobs. Ukraine, at that time, was notorious for being corrupt; anything was for sale and the government was owned by rich Oligarchs. VP Biden's son, Hunter, started a business venture with a well known and corrupt Ukrainian Energy Company. The deal appeared to have been connected to influence peddling; VP Biden position, since Hunter had no energy background and was paid a huge sum.

Ukraine, at that time, was trying to clean up its image of corruption. A high level Prosecutor was assigned to looked into the Energy company and its known dealings with Hunter Biden. The Prosecutor was shut down by VP Biden; quid pro quo Joe. VP Biden used Needed Ukrainian aid to leverage the firing. After that Ukraine, was on the Biden's crap list. Russian invasion was delayed under Trump, but went ahead after Biden was elected President. Biden waited until too late.

We all feel sorry for the Ukrainian people, having their cities destroyed, but this could have been avoided, if corruption was not legal and protected within the USA government, by law. Russia never invaded Ukraine or anywhere else during Trump, and Ukraine had elections and was starting to clean house. But Obama and then Biden, caused instability and the result was Russian expansion into Crimea, and then into Ukraine. Ukraine was not ready to surrender, and now here we are; Ukraine is fighting for NATO as a surrogate; war hawk loophole. Law can be used for evil.

 

[lukethethird]

One mistake that is often made when addressing such delicate subjects is to get wrapped in the present headlines, and not look at the past events that brought us to where we are, today. The analogy is someone getting cut with a knife. Instead of looking at the big picture, you only think in terms of the infection you see many days later. The short term view can miss an important point such as the source of the infection. That knife needs to be thrown away, so it does not do this again and again.

Ukraine had been part of the Soviet Union's military firewall, before the collapse of the USSR. It was a forward defensive firewall position for Russia, that buffered Russia from potential invasion via Western Europe. Ukraine had a large stockpile of nuclear weapons for defense. After the Soviet Union fell, there was international worry that someone in Ukraine would fire a nuke, now all possessed by a free Ukraine.

Under the Obama Administration, a deal was struck to remove the nukes from Ukraine, in exchange for protection from Russia. Ukraine was in a delicate position. It would be giving Russian Cold War nukes to the Cold War adversary of Russia; USA and NATO. Obama promised Ukraine protections and future admission into NATO. This made Russia, nervous since now NATO would be on its door step. Obama was in a bind, and renegaded, on the promise to Ukraine, which left Ukraine out to dry. Russia was not very happy with dangling Ukraine.

Former Vice President Biden had been assigned to Ukraine as one of his jobs. Ukraine, at that time, was notorious for being corrupt; anything was for sale and the government was owned by rich Oligarchs. VP Biden's son, Hunter, started a business venture with a well known and corrupt Ukrainian Energy Company. The deal appeared to have been connected to influence peddling; VP Biden position, since Hunter had no energy background and was paid a huge sum.

Ukraine, at that time, was trying to clean up its image of corruption. A high level Prosecutor was assigned to looked into the Energy company and its known dealings with Hunter Biden. The Prosecutor was shut down by VP Biden; quid pro quo Joe. VP Biden used Needed Ukrainian aid to leverage the firing. After that Ukraine, was on the Biden's crap list. Russian invasion was delayed under Trump, but went ahead after Biden was elected President. Biden waited until too late.

We all feel sorry for the Ukrainian people, having their cities destroyed, but this could have been avoided, if corruption was not legal and protected within the USA government, by law. Russia never invaded Ukraine or anywhere else during Trump, and Ukraine had elections and was starting to clean house. But Obama and then Biden, caused instability and the result was Russian expansion into Crimea, and then into Ukraine. Ukraine was not ready to surrender, and now here we are; Ukraine is fighting for NATO as a surrogate; war hawk loophole. Law can be used for evil.

Ukraine gave up their nukes 31 years ago.

 

[metis]

Ukraine gave up their nukes 31 years ago.

And that's not the only thing that's wrong and even illogical, let me tell ya. Some seem hell-bent on swallowing nonsensical conspiracy theories.