What is "woke" in 2024

[Brickjectivity]

I am 'woke' in 2024. And I was woke long before that.

**mod edit**

What I'd say is I have no problem with you, however the only way I can see to achieve your lofty ideas is to google it. What is your idea of an alternative to our capitalist society -- I mean something that has proven to function. Is there an objective that we can aim for?

I have no problem with you being woke though until I know what you mean. Do you mean reparations? That is discussable. We could talk about reparations and what you think is a deal that would be acceptable to most concerned. (Of course reparations will never be acceptable to *all* concerned.) If it is about land I will listen. I will consider it. If it is about marriage law or other laws I will consider it. Make it rational. Make a case. Don't leave me with "I don't like it."

 

[PureX]

We're agreed.

I think it's a minority of people who believe these things. But we know that in general, small groups of extremists can have an outsized influence on society, and I think the woke fall into that category.

They are certainly having an outsized influence on YOU.

I think it's a whole lot of noise about nothing; intended to jack up the fear and bigotry within anyone that is inclined to go that way, ... by the people that stand to benefit most from doing that. And what we need to be doing in response is exposing those people and their lies, not further stirring their brew-pot of bigotry and stupidity.

 

[icehorse]

Well from the comments on my readers group so far today, it's running about 60%. It appears to be one of those things where the louder voices are actually the smaller number of the total. Sort of like Evangelicals out of all Christians.

Ok, for the sake of discussion I can grant you 60%

The remaining 40% still equate to a large number of people who believe the ideas listed in the OP.

And as a sort of recap of this thread, one of the most recurring counter arguments to the OP has been that "no one thinks that way". So I offer just these two authors (I could list many more woke influencers), as proof that lots of people thinks this way.

 

[icehorse]

They are certainly having an outsized influence on YOU.

I think it's a whole lot of noise about nothing; intended to jack up the fear and bigotry within anyone that is inclined to go that way, ... by the people that stand to benefit most from doing that. And what we need to be doing in response is exposing those people and their lies, not further stirring their brew-pot of bigotry and stupidity.

So the summary is I think a lot of people believe the ideas in the list and you do not.

I have provided evidence, you have not. This is not surprising because it's almost impossible to prove that a thing does not exist.

But I don't feel the need to continue unless you have a different point. We simply disagree about whether lots of people believe in the ideas in the OP. You say no, I say yes. fair enough?

 

[Spice]

Ok, for the sake of discussion I can grant you 60%

The remaining 40% still equate to a large number of people who believe the ideas listed in the OP.

And as a sort of recap of this thread, one of the most recurring counter arguments to the OP has been that "no one thinks that way". So I offer just these two authors (I could list many more woke influencers), as proof that lots of people thinks this way.

I would not say 40% if all "think that way," but rather that 40% of the readers and speaking engagement attendees of the proposed hypothesis as you've shared, "think that way."

 

[Twilight Hue]

Woke now is just a sales pitch

For which the one realizes the reality of go woke, go , broke.

 

[anna.]

I have provided evidence, you have not.

What evidence have you provided?

Jumping onto your bandwagon fallacy: How many more millions of people did NOT buy the book or rate it on Amazon?

Because that's literally all the evidence you have.

 

[Argentbear]

Ok @PureX and @Spice and @crossfire and...

I just did a 15 second search on Amazon and found that one of Kendi's books has over 28,000 reviews with an average 4.5 star rating.

If you think an author is full of malarky, you tend not to give the author 4 and 5 star reviews, correct?

According to Amazon.com 71% of readers of Mein Kempf gave the book a 5 star rating. They must believe what it says

 

[Argentbear]

In no way am I defending this list, ffs. I think woke-ism is having a huge negative impact on society.

But the overall summary of this thread has been my opponents all claiming that people don't believe the ideas on this list, and my most repeated counter argument is that these two authors (who are a fraction of woke's famous advocates), demonstrate that millions of people believe the ideas in this list.

This thread is largely another example of the "it's not happening" argument that's become so tiresome on RF.

since you are so enamored of the authors and have obviously read them can you quote them where they are saying what your OP list is attributing to them?

 

[Augustus]

According to Amazon.com 71% of readers of Mein Kempf gave the book a 5 star rating. They must believe what it says

If you reviewed Mein Kampf, how many stars would you give it and why?

 

[Altfish]

Far-left / woke beliefs:

1 - Free speech is less important than protecting people from being offended.
2 - Protecting personal liberties is less important than protecting people from being offended.
3 - The world’s people and societies should be viewed from an “oppressed vs. oppressor” perspective.
4 - White people have privilege, and are racist by default.
5 - White cultures are more colonist and imperialist than non-white cultures.
6 - An individual’s “lived experience” should have as much or more weight in public policy than broad statistical facts.
7 - There is an intersectional or oppression hierarchy and any criticism of the “most oppressed” people’s ideas or activism are by default “phobic” or “racist” in some way.
8 - Objectivity, critical thinking, and logic are tools of the oppressors.
9 - The DEI perspective and DEI initiatives must not be criticized.
10 - Diversity (in DEI), is based on race, gender, and sexuality more than on diversity of ideas.
11 - Inclusion (in DEI), is based on race, gender, sexuality, and conformity to woke beliefs, non-conformists are excluded.
12 - Equality (in DEI) means equality of outcomes, not equality of opportunities.
13 - The concerns of the most oppressed are more important than the concerns of the less oppressed.
14 - Cultural appropriation is a significant problem in society.
15- People’s immutable identity characteristics are more important than their behaviors.
16 - The only cultures that can be criticized are western cultures.

Wow, if that is correct I'm a far right fascist (I'm not)
I brag that "I'm proud to be woke" but recognise none of the above.

 

[PureX]

What I'd say is I have no problem with you, however the only way I can see to achieve your lofty ideas is to google it. What is your idea of an alternative to our capitalist society -- I mean something that has proven to function. Is there an objective that we can aim for?

What does "proven to function" have to do with it? When the U.S. was created, no one had any proof it would function (for as long as it did. It has now become dysfunctional as capitalist greed has clearly overwhelmed it). As to the objective, it is very simple: to spread the decision-making power out among those who are going to be most effected by the decisions being made. In terms of commercial business, that means the workers, the consumers, and their respective communities get a say in how that business is going to be conducted. And NOT just the capital investors and their political cronies.

I have no problem with you being woke though until I know what you mean. Do you mean reparations? That is discussable.

I am a recovered alcoholic. I cannot "repair" the damage I have done through 20 years of excessive drinking. It's just not possible. And my damage was light compared to a lot of other alcoholics I know. So I see the idea of "reparations" as being overly simplistic and mostly unworkable. The best way for me to "repair" the damage I've done via my alcoholism is to NEVER DRINK AGAIN. That's something I can do. And along with that comes the sobriety that keeps me from acting as an agent of chaos everywhere I go, as I once did.

And this is how our current society should deal with the damage and chaos left in the wake of it's ugly (drunken) past. That is to STOP DOING IT, first off. Stop blaming and kicking down at the poor for being poor because we don't want to acknowledge the ugly selfishness and horrific mean-spiritedness of our collective capitalist greed. Or the horrible racism and bigotry hiding behind the (mostly white) 'haves' desire to make sure no one else ever gets any of what they've got. Just like a drunk has to finally admit to being a drunk before he can hope to get sober, our capitalist culture needs to admit to the horrible greed and selfishness and bigotry that it has embraced for the last two centuries before it can ever hope to 'sober up' and change for the better.

And time is running out.

We could talk about reparations and what you think is a deal that would be acceptable to most concerned. (Of course reparations will never be acceptable to *all* concerned.)

The debate about "reparations" is just another smoke screen for us to hide behind and avoid having to admit to the real problem in the first place. We figure maybe we'll pay a bit of "reparation" money so we can then forget and ignore the innate greed and selfishness and stupidity and bigotry that did all that damage in the first place. Which only means that we will continue on down that horrible destructive path, as we are already doing. The homeless will continue to pile up in our streets, and the rural towns will continue to die and fall into weeds and dust, and the global climate will continue to heat up and set the forests on fire, and the warmongers will continue to start new wars so the military industrialists can continue to make billions off the deaths of millions of human beings, and on and on it'll go.

All because we cannot admit that capitalism is just systemic selfishness and greed, and selfishness and greed are social, economic, and now even global poison.

If it is about land I will listen. I will consider it. If it is about marriage law or other laws I will consider it. Make it rational. Make a case. Don't leave me with "I don't like it."

"Reparations" is just another capitalist smoke screen. Intended to keep us fighting and bickering and divided against each other while they continue to rob us all blind and poison our minds, our culture, and our Earth. We have to turn and face the real problem. And it's not reparations. It's not racism or sexism or 'woke-ism'. It's not hate speech. It's the acceptance of systematized selfishness and greed and stupidity. And it's called 'capitalism'.

 

[PureX]

So the summary is I think a lot of people believe the ideas in the list and you do not.

And my conclusion is that your idea of "a lot of people" is greatly exaggerated, exactly as the fear-mongers, the hate-mongers, and the bold-faced liars on the right want you to think. Because they have every intention of deliberately causing the very problems that you see being caused: division, confusion, animosity, fear, and mistrust. All working to their advantage.

And without realizing it, you are abetting them by playing it up, even though you claim to see that it's mostly all just hyperbolic nonsense. I honestly don't see how you're not choking on your own psychological dissonance.

 

[Stevicus]

Thanks for your thoughtful reply.

My summary of your post is that we mostly agree, and based on what you said, I don't think you're woke.

Again, I disagree with the list in the OP. I enumerated it as an attempt to define "woke" as it exists in 2024. Not how it was originally defined, but what it's devolved to.

Well, terms like "woke" have been a bit overdone lately, as a lot of political labels have been. I believe in the basic principles of equality, social justice, and human rights. For this reason, my principles might overlap greatly with those who might be considered "woke."

However, I'm also aware of a certain political trend I've noticed where some people tend to take this approach of "those who are not with us are against us" and seem inordinately focused on form over content. I tend to bristle against that kind of approach.

 

[icehorse]

What evidence have you provided?

Jumping onto your bandwagon fallacy: How many more millions of people did NOT buy the book or rate it on Amazon?

Because that's literally all the evidence you have.

You seem to be attacking a claim I'm not making

I've never claimed that the majority of people agree with the OP.

But the point is that a significant number do.

 

[PureX]

You seem to be attacking a claim I'm not making

I've never claimed that the majority of people agree with the OP.

But the point is that a significant number do.

How did your assessment of "significance" become evidence, exactly?

 

[Brickjectivity]

What does "proven to function" have to do with it? When the U.S. was created, no one had any proof it would function (for as long as it did. It has now become dysfunctional as capitalist greed has destroyed it). As to the objective, it is very simple: to spread the decision-making power out among those who are going to be most effected by the decisions being made. In terms of commercial business, that means the workers, the consumers, and their respective communities get a say in how that business is going to be conducted. And NOT just the capital investors.

I must explain that I do not know the fix. 'Apology' means "Explanation of one's actions or of ones thought process." There is (to my knowledge) nothing better than some form of an economy. I just don't have any other knowledge. What is better for humans? Chimps are like humans without an economy. I don't want for us to live like chimpanzees. We have done so. We have lived that way even in recorded History. It has been horrific. We are evil creatures. We must have a means of exchange that doesn't involve killing and threats.

I am a recovered alcoholic. I cannot "repair" the damage I have done through 20 years of excessive drinking. And my damage was light compared to a lot of other alcoholics. So I see the idea of "reparations" as being overly simplistic and unworkable. The best way for me to "repair" the damage I've done via my alcoholism is NEVER TO DRINK AGAIN. That's something I can do. And along with that comes the sobriety that keeps me from acting as an agent of chaos everywhere I go.

That isn't the same as reparations. Reparations require that people give away what we have. Without reparations we can continue living for ourselves. Most people already do this. I live in Mississippi. We already do this. I stand to inherit. Its not much, but its something. What's 'Woke' about that? Aren't you asking me to do something?

And this is how our current society should deal with the damage and chaos left in the wake of it's ugly (drunken) past. That is to STOP DOING IT, first off. Stop blaming and kicking down at the poor for being poor because we don't want to acknowledge the ugly selfishness and horrific mean-spiritedness of our collective capitalist greed. Or the horrible racism and bigotry hiding behind the (mostly white) 'haves' desire to make sure no one else ever gets any of what they've got. Just like a drunk has to finally admit to being a drunk before he can hope to get sober, our capitalist culture needs to admit to the horrible greed and selfishness and bigotry that it has embraced for the last two centuries before it can ever hope to 'sober up' and change for the better.

And time is running out.

We have stopped. Segregration has been recognized as both illegal and unconstitutional. Whites and blacks work together as do all others who don't quite fit into a black or white category. "NEVER DRINK AGAIN" means what in terms of our society? Does it mean only "Never steal people's souls again?" Because we did. We stole people's souls. Now we don't. Does it mean everything is fine, or are you suggesting something further? Like what Tim Black suggests: Reparations. I cannot tell what you mean. Here in Mississippi we do not steal people. We do not buy people. We do not require blacks to verifiy that each is not owned. All are Americans. No person is owned by another, not even momentarily. Wives are not owned. Children are not owned. There is no contract observed by courts in which one may sell themselves for a time or for a lifetime. Foreigners may not be owned, either. We stopped over 60 years ago.

The debate about "reparations" is just another smoke screen for us to hide behind and avoid having to admit to the real problem in the first place. We figure maybe we'll pay a bit of "reparation" money so we can then forget and ignore the innate greed and selfishness and stupidity and bigotry that did all that damage in the first place. Which only means that we will continue on down that horrible destructive path, as we are already doing. The homeless will continue to pile up in our streets, and the rural towns will continue to die and fall into dust, and the global climate will continue to heat up and set the Earth in fire, and the warmongers will continue to start wars so the military industrialists can continue to make billions of the deaths of millions of human beings, and on and on it'll go.

All because we cannot admit that capitalism is just systemic selfishness and greed, and selfishness and greed are social, economic, and now even global poison.

I think you underestimate the word 'Reparations'. Reparations are an idea put forward by (USA) blacks who are not happy with their inheritances nor with the psychological baggage put upon them by the slavery of their ancestors. I fully fear and understand the claim to reparations. I'm very much afraid that it is an unaffordable and unpayable offence. I cannot argue that things are fair for them. How can my generation pay what is owed? It is incalculable. Therein is the explanation for why I do nothing. Its too much.

It doesn't mean we will "Continue down that destructive path." It means there is no possibility of repayment in full. Bankruptcy: do you see that we are bankrupt? I don't have enough to pay this. That doesn't mean that capitalistm is the problem. Slavery has a bill we just cannot pay, but capitalism might be at least partial compensation. With capitalism the descendants of slaves can hope for an escape from the situation of their ancestors, and many people have realized it.

"Reparations" is just another capitalist smoke screen. Intended to keep us fighting and divided against each other while they continue to rob us all blind and poison our culture and our world. We have to turn and face the real problem. And it's not reparations. It's not racism or sexism. It's not hate speech. It's the acceptance of systematized selfishness and greed and stupidity. And it's called 'capitalism'.

Its not capitalist. Its remorse.

 

[anna.]

You seem to be attacking a claim I'm not making

I've never claimed that the majority of people agree with the OP.

But the point is that a significant number do.

You seem to be looking right past what I said.

You have no evidence to support your claim that millions of people agree with your OP. You seem to think that book sales and Amazon reviews apply to the population at large, and they don't. You're giving books sales and Amazon reviews an authority they don't have. So in answer to your bandwagon fallacy, I'll ask you again:

How many MORE millions of people did NOT buy the book or rate it on Amazon? (Here's a clue: current U.S. population is ~337 million.)

337 million > thousands

 

[PureX]

I must explain that I do not know the fix. 'Apology' means "Explanation of one's actions or of ones thought process." There is (to my knowledge) nothing better than some form of an economy. I just don't have any other knowledge. What is better for humans? Chimps are like humans without an economy. I don't want for us to live like chimpanzees. We have done so. We have lived that way even in recorded History. It has been horrific. We are evil creatures. We must have a means of exchange that doesn't involve killing and threats.

That isn't the same as reparations. Reparations require that people give away what we have. Without reparations we can continue living for ourselves. Most people already do this. I live in Mississippi. We already do this. I stand to inherit. Its not much, but its something. What's 'Woke' about that? Aren't you asking me to do something?

We have stopped. Segregration has been recognized as both illegal and unconstitutional. Whites and blacks work together as do all others who don't quite fit into a black or white category. "NEVER DRINK AGAIN" means what in terms of our society? Does it mean only "Never steal people's souls again?" Because we did. We stole people's souls. Now we don't. Does it mean everything is fine, or are you suggesting something further? Like what Tim Black suggests: Reparations. I cannot tell what you mean. Here in Mississippi we do not steal people. We do not buy people. We do not require blacks to verifiy that each is not owned. All are Americans. No person is owned by another, not even momentarily. Wives are not owned. Children are not owned. There is no contract observed by courts in which one may sell themselves for a time or for a lifetime. Foreigners may not be owned, either. We stopped over 60 years ago.

I think you underestimate the word 'Reparations'. Reparations are an idea put forward by (USA) blacks who are not happy with their inheritances nor with the psychological baggage put upon them by the slavery of their ancestors. I fully fear and understand the claim to reparations. I'm very much afraid that it is an unaffordable and unpayable offence. I cannot argue that things are fair for them. How can my generation pay what is owed? It is incalculable. Therein is the explanation for why I do nothing. Its too much.

It doesn't mean we will "Continue down that destructive path." It means there is no possibility of repayment in full. Bankruptcy: do you see that we are bankrupt? I don't have enough to pay this. That doesn't mean that capitalistm is the problem. Slavery has a bill we just cannot pay, but capitalism might be at least partial compensation. With capitalism the descendants of slaves can hope for an escape from the situation of their ancestors, and many people have realized it.

Its not capitalist. Its remorse.

What did the damage?

That's what we must stop doing.

What did the damage was greed and selfishness and stupidity. We enslaved Africans because we more easily could, at that time. We would have enslaved anyone else if we more easily could have, at that time.

Rich southerners used to enslave people with whips and chains and steal their lives from them. Rich northerners used to enslave people with debt and starvation and steal their lives from them. The northerners thought they were the morally superior. And the physically stronger. So they forced the southerners to stop overtly enslaving people with whips and chains and stealing their lives, and now the rich everywhere, north, south, east, and west, enslave everyone that they can, covertly, with debt, and they steal whatever they can get. Our time, our effort, our capabilities, our hopes. And in the end, leave us to die on our own.

There are no reparations that will ever make up for all the suffering and all the stealing and all the death. But we could finally face the greed and selfishness and stupidity that has been driving this ship of horrors for so many years. At least we could try. But that will never happen so long as we keep excusing it. And pretending that it's not what it is. And telling ourselves we can't do better. That this is all we can ever be.

 

[icehorse]

You seem to be looking right past what I said.

You have no evidence to support your claim that millions of people agree with your OP. You seem to think that book sales and Amazon reviews apply to the population at large, and they don't. You're giving books sales and Amazon reviews an authority they don't have. So in answer to your bandwagon fallacy, I'll ask you again:

How many MORE millions of people did NOT buy the book or rate it on Amazon? (Here's a clue: current U.S. population is ~337 million.)

337 million > thousands

No, I don't think that books sales apply to the population at large. You seem to be looking right past what I said.

I have never claimed that the majority of the population are woke. I have said several times on this thread that I agree that the woke are a minority.

What I'm saying is that a significant percentage (say 40%), of the people who buy these books and go to these talks are woke.

Agreed so far or not?