• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

What is "woke" in 2024

amorphous_constellation

Well-Known Member
Some countries and societies can generally be classified as oppressed, such as North Korea, Iran, and Turkmenistan. Some countries can generally be classified as extensively engaging in oppression against other countries, such as China, Russia, and the US. I see nothing "far left" about acknowledging this.
Well, some countries can seem to oppress themselves, right? (perhaps also while oppressing others, or perhaps not, if their power does not extend that far) So in your first sentence, I suppose you might mean that it is the country oppressing its own society. Perhaps in addition to having an external oppressor
Note that I used the words "countries" and "societies" when describing being oppressed but only "countries" when describing those carrying out oppression. This is because I don't believe entire societies can be said to be oppressing others, but governments can be, and in many contexts, speaking of countries is often understood as referring to those in power, not to the general population as a whole.
It is a view that gives common people more leeway, and I think I always generally agreed with it. But in this framework, can a country influence a society to behave a certain way, and vice versa? I might argue that this is where influential individuals enter the picture, because isn't that usually how things seem to work. I mean, you can pick up any history book on anywhere, and it mentions the work of individuals, and the influence of individuals.. and this influence is said to transmit to the society, and the country. But at the same time, all the individuals that ever existed seem to have came from a society, and country (the thing that I would say embeds both)
White people have privilege in what context or country? A white person who has citizenship of a powerful Western country absolutely has advantages relative to most other people in many contexts, such as when dealing with corrupt law enforcement in many third-world countries, having access to visa-free travel, having extensive protection afforded by their country's embassy and government, being perceived more favorably in many countries, etc.
I might need an example of some of this, to understand what you mean. If you want, expand on this
Some forms of systemic abuse overlap, and this is neither a new nor radical idea. For instance, Middle Eastern people have been dehumanized by some American media outlets over the last two decades, and Muslims more so. Middle Eastern Muslims have been dehumanized the most in media outlets like Fox News, which has paved the way for acceptance of or indifference to various abuses against them.
I don't trust the Left or Right mainstream outlets, or alternative outlets either. I listen to a tiny bit of everything - a podcast from a left winger, one from the right, one from a different perspective, and back and forth like that
 

amorphous_constellation

Well-Known Member
Far-left / woke beliefs:

1 - Free speech is less important than protecting people from being offended.
2 - Protecting personal liberties is less important than protecting people from being offended.
3 - The world’s people and societies should be viewed from an “oppressed vs. oppressor” perspective.
4 - White people have privilege, and are racist by default.
5 - White cultures are more colonist and imperialist than non-white cultures.
6 - An individual’s “lived experience” should have as much or more weight in public policy than broad statistical facts.
7 - There is an intersectional or oppression hierarchy and any criticism of the “most oppressed” people’s ideas or activism are by default “phobic” or “racist” in some way.
8 - Objectivity, critical thinking, and logic are tools of the oppressors.
9 - The DEI perspective and DEI initiatives must not be criticized.
10 - Diversity (in DEI), is based on race, gender, and sexuality more than on diversity of ideas.
11 - Inclusion (in DEI), is based on race, gender, sexuality, and conformity to woke beliefs, non-conformists are excluded.
12 - Equality (in DEI) means equality of outcomes, not equality of opportunities.
13 - The concerns of the most oppressed are more important than the concerns of the less oppressed.
14 - Cultural appropriation is a significant problem in society.
15- People’s immutable identity characteristics are more important than their behaviors.
16 - The only cultures that can be criticized are western cultures.
I guess I would say, to anyone who has these views, is that there is a risk of creating a strawman here, using these views, rather creating something more desirable that you would want. The far-left, if these are the views it has, should create another list, of things it wants to see in western society, and wants to see in whites. And then that could be their positive set of identity politics to aspire to

I myself am white, and have problems with my own race that are not on this list. But I would preface that, with saying that it is sort of poorly defined, who exactly it is we are, perhaps in large part because we didn't see that as mattering all that much. I'm not even sure if I care

Anyway, to try and be concise, I would say that the main problem is, (from the inside of the construct) is that we don't have a lot of happy mediums, in terms of social position, I don't think. The goal is to live in the suburbs, or in the country, taking up a lot of high priced real-estate. But then, a lot of people don't naturally reach that level, so I guess they head to the streets or something.. and maybe this kind of the hitting roughly at the root of the current fentanyl crisis, is that if you don't get the high dollar job, and the big house.. then what do you have, in eyes of this rather materialistic society we come from?

I didn't go to the streets, I went to work in the factory. Nobody followed me here from graduating class. The immigrants however, are the workers that are usually willing to sustain these jobs for the long haul, and they come working with their wives and family. And you know, it's admirable. They value doing this, together. But the people in the suburbs where I grew up would look down on me, if they saw me in my oily, frayed work clothes
 
Last edited:

Father Heathen

Veteran Member
Don't woke policies; goals, create Government run oppression? Nobody voted for all that illegal immigration; force the international oppressed onto the majority of privileged first world citizens. Woke is a threat to Democracy. Woke is actually like a person who is still asleep, but dreaming of being awakened. by the heavy hand of Government. Affirmative Action had its own government created victims. Government by virtue of size and power monopoly has the potential to the be worse oppressor. Woke is a way to wake the sleeping criminal government.

Name me a woke ideal that can happen without Government strong arm? Woke is actually a DNC and Swamp Government scam designed to steal power from the people and from Democracy. Democracy allows everyone the right to pursue happiness. Woke is the right of Government to force that right to happiness for their chosen minions. Name me a woke person who is not also DNC? It is a political scam.

Let us place the most unqualified woke people, as the leaders of the Secret Service, to protect a former president. Only government would be so obvious, as to their end game. How about we take a Democratic vote to decide the fate of the woke agenda? Woke is not about the will of the people, but is really about using the force of Government, to gradually replace Democracy, with a socialist dictatorship, that can now muscle the free market and business; DEI, and then ruin the economy as a prelude, to defaulting to Socialism. Socialism is based on mediocrity, as is woke.

Project 2025, which is being misrepresented by fake news is about a return to Democracy by restoring Government to this original mission as defined by the founding fathers; Public Servant, and not a woke overlord. For example, Big Government, via the DNC, had down graded education. This is a major reason of so many woke people feeling short changed. The Government set you up for failure, as a child, and brain washed to think you now need the very Government, who deprived you of a good education, to fix the problem they created.

Project 2025 scares the DNC, since it changes the Government from education up, to avoid all these deliberatepitfalls. It will set back their scams 20-30 years. It took 20-30 years to downgrade education, to where the woke scam seems to make sense. There is a way to get social justice on your own and that is called a rational education and learning self motivation so you can pursue your own American dream. Welcome to the adult world of Democracy. You will no longer need Big Mama, to fight your battles, because she handicapped you. It is liberating to feel you can work under your own steam and not project failure to justify waking a Criminal Government; Shady version of Robin Hood.
A gish gallop platter stacked high with non sequiturs and strawmen. It's impossible to ascertain what exactly is meant by "woke" here. Seems it can mutate into anything, as long as it maintains its role as scary boogeyman.

conpanic.jpg
 
Last edited:

icehorse

......unaffiliated...... anti-dogmatist
Premium Member
Doesn't matter if you think they're right or wrong. It's your generalizing that sample to the population.
Ok, now I understand your point, thanks for clarifying!

I'm an author by profession, and I have a good handle on why books become best sellers. You are correct that not everyone who buys a book ends up agreeing with what's in the book. But most readers do end up agreeing. After an initial marketing blitz, books remain on the best seller list primarily thru positive word of mouth.

While I don't think it's accurate, I could grant you the notion that 50% of the buyers of these books don't agree with the authors. Again, I think that's way too high a number, but for our discussion, I will grant you that.

We're still left with hundreds of thousands of readers who agree with the authors.

Now add to that the fact that these authors go on speaking tours. Again, some people in the audience won't agree with the authors, but most people who make the effort to drive to an event, are doing so because they like the message.
 

icehorse

......unaffiliated...... anti-dogmatist
Premium Member
I openly identify as woke. Nothing in that list describes me, my beliefs or intentions.

Glad to hear it. But there are millions of people who identify as woke who do believe what I said in the OP.

Now it might be that you actually DO believe that your lived experience carries a lot of weight, which Is on the list :)
 

icehorse

......unaffiliated...... anti-dogmatist
Premium Member
I am disappointed that you go through the trouble of such an utterly strawmanly (or worse) OP... and that there are people who do not laught of it at sight.

Do you even believe that such "woke" people exist at all?

It is offensive, more than a little childish, and quite delusional. Not necessarily in that order.
Who exactly am I strawmanning?

Yes, I know they exist and I'm using two best selling authors and speakers as proof of that. Have you read their books? You can probably read summaries on wikipedia or some such. If you don't know who these authors are, then how can you make the claims you are making here?

And finally with the slurs? Again, you appear to be arguing from a perspective that is ignorant of the topic?
 

icehorse

......unaffiliated...... anti-dogmatist
Premium Member
Yes, you are wrong, very wrong, but ots expected. I could fire that straight back at you by rephrasing it "anyone who disagrees with you is far left" am i correct?

FYI I have several right wing friends, including my husband (who has now changed his allegence). I have no problems with the right so long as they do not lie about the left. A thing that is becoming more and more prevalent since the rise of trump's lying politics
So if my interpretation of your earlier post was wrong, please tell me what you meant, thanks.
 

icehorse

......unaffiliated...... anti-dogmatist
Premium Member
"Your"?



Not all interpretations of Islam have that "baked into" them.

I see that this thread has become another one of those where you're mostly not talking to people who disagree with you but are instead talking at them: misrepresenting many of their positions in ways contrary to what they directly tell you about their views, trying to tell them what they believe, and now apparently making an assumption that I follow a specific religion just because I pushed back against unevidenced claims that a "significant percentage" of its followers want to spread theocracy.

Good luck with it. I'm not putting any more time or energy into this futile exercise.
In this conversation you have decided to be an apologist for Islam. So yes, I am discussing the book you are apologizing for.

Some claims are fundamental to a belief system. To be a Muslim, you must defend the idea that the Quran is the perfect, timeless, unalterable word of God. Full stop. That's a claim that all Muslims must make. I'm not misrepresenting anything, quite the contrary, I'm taking Muslims at their word. I'm not infantilizing them.
 

Debater Slayer

Vipassana
Staff member
Premium Member
Well, some countries can seem to oppress themselves, right? (perhaps also while oppressing others, or perhaps not, if their power does not extend that far) So in your first sentence, I suppose you might mean that it is the country oppressing its own society. Perhaps in addition to having an external oppressor

I wouldn't say "oppress themselves" per se, since autocratic governments tend to be the class imposing the oppression on the rest of the population. The rest of society would not be oppressing themselves, as they would have little to no control over the country's systems and institutions.

I think that in many cases, it would be accurate to say a country was "oppressing its own society," as you described it—with "country" primarily referring to those in power.

It is a view that gives common people more leeway, and I think I always generally agreed with it. But in this framework, can a country influence a society to behave a certain way, and vice versa?

I definitely think so, yes, especially over the long term. I think the media are a potent and pervasive way of influencing societies, or large segments thereof, to behave in certain ways or believe certain things that then influence specific behaviors. It's no surprise that totalitarian regimes invariably use propaganda to entrench their hold on power and society.

This dovetails with the next point you brought up, which I think is quite an insightful one:

I might argue that this is where influential individuals enter the picture, because isn't that usually how things seem to work. I mean, you can pick up any history book on anywhere, and it mentions the work of individuals, and the influence of individuals.. and this influence is said to transmit to the society, and the country. But at the same time, all the individuals that ever existed seem to have came from a society, and country (the thing that I would say embeds both)

Yes, I would agree that influential individuals tend to have a large role in driving sociopolitical attitudes. I believe the likes of Lenin, Mao, and Pol Pot are examples of this. Lenin in particular was not just influential in his own country but also influenced later authoritarians in other countries like Castro, Mao, and Pol Pot, among others.

I might need an example of some of this, to understand what you mean. If you want, expand on this

Developed countries tend to provide far better protection and guidance for their citizens abroad than developing and third-world ones. Aside from the fact that developed countries' passports rank quite highly on passport indices due to allowing much easier access to other countries in general (as seen on this index), there are various other ramifications of this. For example, detention over arbitrary or trumped-up charges is fairly common in some third-world countries with particularly high levels of corruption, but once someone shows that they have a passport from a powerful country, they are usually safe and treated much differently than they would otherwise be.

Also, for more mundane tasks like getting documents or paperwork done in said countries, a powerful passport again could (but is not always guaranteed to) help with moving things forward. In many situations where a local would probably need to pay a bribe or contact a powerful connection (if they have any), for example, a holder of such a passport could use it in lieu of having connections—the passport itself is the leverage.

US citizenship is typically the most powerful in this regard, but German, British, and French (among others) passports also tend to be quite good for protection, from what I have read. I have known American expatriates in multiple countries who have talked about how they have extensively relied on their citizenship when abroad (in third-world countries, not developed ones) both in situations like the ones I mentioned above and when getting employed, since a person can get paid a higher or lower salary in some countries—such as Saudi Arabia—partially based on their nationality.

There have also been instances when American YouTubers who were recording videos on the street in certain countries were harassed and almost detained by law enforcement but were treated with respect and caution once the cops realized they were American. I would rather not post those videos here, though, as I would prefer to avoid discussing their details here, so let me know if you would like to see them and I can send the links to you in a PM.

The above is more tied to nationality than skin color, so I don't think "white privilege" is a particularly accurate term to describe it. However, for many people in some countries (including some outside the West), being white is also tied to positive perceptions or sometimes, I would say, stereotypes—such as being affluent, beautiful, educated, etc. Here's an article I read a while back concerning this topic as it supposedly relates to South Korea, although I don't know enough about South Korean society to form an opinion on how accurate any of the claims in the article are:


I don't trust the Left or Right mainstream outlets, or alternative outlets either. I listen to a tiny bit of everything - a podcast from a left winger, one from the right, one from a different perspective, and back and forth like that

I think that's a reasonable approach. I also read and listen to a variety of sources with different leanings. I find that doing so helps to put things into perspective much more than sticking to a bubble or echo chamber would.
 

icehorse

......unaffiliated...... anti-dogmatist
Premium Member
Do you have a reliable survey to support this assertion?
As I've mentioned several times in this thread, even if you only consider the two authors Kendi and DiAngelo, their sales numbers support the conclusion that hundreds of thousands, probably millions of people believe the things in the OP's list. To be clear, those two authors are not the only indicators we have, but I think they represent an easy, clean way to demonstrate the spread of these ideas.
 

Viker

Your beloved eccentric Auntie Cristal
Glad to hear it. But there are millions of people who identify as woke who do believe what I said in the OP.

Now it might be that you actually DO believe that your lived experience carries a lot of weight, which Is on the list :)
"An individual’s “lived experience” should have as much or more weight in public policy than broad statistical facts."

What does that mean, to you?
 

Debater Slayer

Vipassana
Staff member
Premium Member
In this conversation you have decided to be an apologist for Islam. So yes, I am discussing the book you are apologizing for.

I find the above claim a lot more amusing than upsetting or anything of the sort, since it is so remarkably at odds with what I believe and stand for that I'm inclined to believe it is almost a reflexive rather than well-considered response.

You and I have debated in many previous threads, and unless you have forgotten about almost all of those debates, it should be quite easy to tell that "apologist for Islam" doesn't remotely represent my views or intentions.

Not that I'm surprised by yet another misrepresentation from you; this is not the first time I have seen you try to shove people into boxes they don't fit in when they disagree with you.

Some claims are fundamental to a belief system. To be a Muslim, you must defend the idea that the Quran is the perfect, timeless, unalterable word of God. Full stop. That's a claim that all Muslims must make. I'm not misrepresenting anything, quite the contrary, I'm taking Muslims at their word. I'm not infantilizing them.

What follows from the claim of Qur'anic infallibility and timelessness, as well as what percentage of Muslims are Islamists or not, is what you're overconfidently making unevidenced assertions about.

If you're not interested in engaging challenges to your views in a way that's conducive to understanding rather than misrepresentation, maybe let people know so that they don't waste time and effort responding to your claims.
 

Kathryn

It was on fire when I laid down on it.
I have a son who is in the military and he is sick to death of all the woke craziness he endures on a daily basis. So it does exist. By the way, I wouldn't call him a conservative though he is more conservative than his brother, who is very liberally minded. I get along fine with both of them.
 

icehorse

......unaffiliated...... anti-dogmatist
Premium Member
"An individual’s “lived experience” should have as much or more weight in public policy than broad statistical facts."

What does that mean, to you?
The woke believe that their individual "lived experience" should weight heavily in the creation or modification of public policies. They somehow think that as an individual, they should be more than one data point in the population.
 

icehorse

......unaffiliated...... anti-dogmatist
Premium Member
I find the above claim a lot more amusing than upsetting or anything of the sort, since it is so remarkably at odds with what I believe and stand for that I'm inclined to believe it is almost a reflexive rather than well-considered response.

You and I have debated in many previous threads, and unless you have forgotten about almost all of those debates, it should be quite easy to tell that "apologist for Islam" doesn't remotely represent my views or intentions.

Not that I'm surprised by yet another misrepresentation from you; this is not the first time I have seen you try to shove people into boxes they don't fit in when they disagree with you.
I am making no claims as to your general stance in life. I am talking only about your stance in this thread.

As you know, in any given debate, a person can choose to take a stance that might be contrary to what they believe outside of the debate.

What follows from the claim of Qur'anic infallibility and timelessness, as well as what percentage of Muslims are Islamists or not, is what you're overconfidently making unevidenced assertions about.

If you're not interested in engaging challenges to your views in a way that's conducive to understanding rather than misrepresentation, maybe let people know so that they don't waste time and effort responding to your claims.
I don't recall specifically, but I know that many times on this forum I have shared links to large polls of Muslims. Worldwide polls, polls from Europe, and polls from the UK.

If you can link to polls that differ significantly from the polls I've mentioned, bring 'em on.
 

Kathryn

It was on fire when I laid down on it.
What does that "woke craziness" consist of?
1 - Free speech is less important than protecting people from being offended.
2 - Protecting personal liberties is less important than protecting people from being offended.
3 - The world’s people and societies should be viewed from an “oppressed vs. oppressor” perspective.
4 - White people have privilege, and are racist by default.
5 - White cultures are more colonist and imperialist than non-white cultures.
6 - An individual’s “lived experience” should have as much or more weight in public policy than broad statistical facts.
7 - There is an intersectional or oppression hierarchy and any criticism of the “most oppressed” people’s ideas or activism are by default “phobic” or “racist” in some way.
8 - Objectivity, critical thinking, and logic are tools of the oppressors.
9 - The DEI perspective and DEI initiatives must not be criticized.
10 - Diversity (in DEI), is based on race, gender, and sexuality more than on diversity of ideas.
11 - Inclusion (in DEI), is based on race, gender, sexuality, and conformity to woke beliefs, non-conformists are excluded.
12 - Equality (in DEI) means equality of outcomes, not equality of opportunities.
13 - The concerns of the most oppressed are more important than the concerns of the less oppressed.
14 - Cultural appropriation is a significant problem in society.
15- People’s immutable identity characteristics are more important than their behaviors.
16 - The only cultures that can be criticized are western cultures.
 
Top