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What is wrong with Socialism, or Marxism?

Stevicus

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
Not all varieties of socialism regard the state as synonymous with the public, and a subset of socialists believe in a state of a small-to-moderate size or even no state at all.

I think treating the state as the public is a recipe for disaster, especially the longer the state has the extensive powers derived from that idea. Human nature makes it so that far-reaching power has a lot of potential to corrupt people, and I don't think socialism or any other ideology can avoid that.

It could work if our democracy was more activist, and if it involved greater public participation, but therein lies the trap. That actually requires work and dedication on the part of the general citizenry, and a lot of public tend to be more passive and distracted by other things. I won't say the public is lazy or apathetic (although no doubt many are), but more just a general sense of complacency or toleration of how things are. It's an attitude of "we know that things are totally fouled up and there's nothing we can do about it, so we might as well just get on with our lives without worrying about it."

That's oftentimes how authoritarian societies can be in practice, since a lot of people simply don't have the time or the energy (especially if they work long hours) to "fight the power." Of course, the other side of that is they'll often feel very little incentive to "defend the power" if someone else tries to fight it.
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
Just for the record, I am a Scandinavian-style socialist. What my cousins in Sweden have I'd love to have here.
 

Estro Felino

Believer in free will
Premium Member
Says you.


Ah. So this actually has nothing to do with climate change, and everything to do with not wanting those yucky brown people to be your neighbors.

Just say that next time. It'll save us all time.



Yeah, to give women more control of their fertility. Precisely what you want the State to take away.

The irony.
I reiterate it...
Europe is too small to receive all those migrants.
The solution is provided by my Prime Minister.

 

Estro Felino

Believer in free will
Premium Member
The State is us.
All of us. Citizens, governors,

We all cooperate to the common good and so we are the State.

Those who work against the common good but for the sake of superfluous needs conflicting with the common good, are not the State.
 

Left Coast

This Is Water
Staff member
Premium Member
So socialism forbids private enterprise?
Aren't capitalist monopolies more a threat to private enterprise than socialism?

Apparently you haven't looked.
Oceans are becoming uninhabitable for many species. Biodiversity is decreasing at an unprecidented rate. Climate change threatens to make large areas uninhabitable, and continues unchecked. Above and below ground water sources are drying up. Topsoil depth is decreasing in agricultural areas. Al natural biological systems are in crisis.

Both of these questions have been answered. You should read through the thread.

It worked great; saved billions of dollars and millions of lives. Increased both individual and economic prosperity. Enabled China's economic miracle. Now that citizens have experienced the benefits, the tradition of large families has fallen out of favor and people are voluntarily having fewer children.

*spits out coffee laughing*

Oh Jesus. Here, let me help you.



If you'd like I can keep going for you. China's increase in economic prosperity has been the result of their allowing expansion of further private enterprise. The one-child policy will go down in history as one of their worst, most authoritarian and inhumane policy ideas of this era.
 

Estro Felino

Believer in free will
Premium Member
She didn't provide a solution to anything, she provided a vague platitude.

We get it. You don't want more yucky Africans living near you. We hear you loud and clear.

There are too many bankers who use Seigniorage to economically exploit countries rich in resources.

That's what unbridled capitalism enables.
 

Left Coast

This Is Water
Staff member
Premium Member
There are too many bankers who use Seigniorage to economically exploit countries rich in resources.

That's what unbridled capitalism enables.

I have news for you. One of the biggest investors in Africa right now is China. Not "unbridled capitalism" that doesn't exist, not France...China.
 

Left Coast

This Is Water
Staff member
Premium Member
Between the literal fascists on one side and the literal socialists defending China's inhumane and authoritarian domestic policies on another...is it any wonder why people feel politics is too polarized and extreme nowadays?
 

Estro Felino

Believer in free will
Premium Member
Between the literal fascists on one side and the literal socialists defending China's inhumane and authoritarian domestic policies on another...is it any wonder why people feel politics is too polarized and extreme nowadays?
I am a socialist and I am neither interested nor informed about China.
I simply don't care.

I follow European models based upon democracy, fundamental human rights, fundamental freedoms.
 

Debater Slayer

Vipassana
Staff member
Premium Member
I reiterate it...
Europe is too small to receive all those migrants.
The solution is provided by my Prime Minister.


I follow European models based upon democracy, fundamental human rights, fundamental freedoms.

Your posts demonstrate otherwise. You're trying to use Africa's problems as a springboard for an agenda. I'll highlight this again:

You don't get to dictate to other regions whether they should have children, especially when Africa, one of the two continents you named, accounts for only about 4% of global carbon emissions.

I also strongly doubt it's a coincidence that an admirer of Mussolini supports restriction of reproduction in Asia and Africa but not Europe. Your position is starkly prejudiced and similar to eugenics, and it needs to be called out as such at every opportunity.

I don't believe that you have Africans' best interests in mind considering that you have advocated for the state forcing them, but not Europeans, to use contraception. This is rhetoric that is tinged with eugenics. Simple as that.

For the record, I'm against any laws that criminalize having any children or more than a specific number of children. I think they amount to rank overreach and violation of personal rights by the state.
 

Debater Slayer

Vipassana
Staff member
Premium Member
It worked great; saved billions of dollars and millions of lives. Increased both individual and economic prosperity. Enabled China's economic miracle. Now that citizens have experienced the benefits, the tradition of large families has fallen out of favor and people are voluntarily having fewer children.

Whether or not the one-child policy had any benefits seems to me beside the point; I think it was starkly inhumane and in violation of basic personal rights. I don't think the state should have such an extensive level of authority that it could penalize people for having more than one child.

The CCP may tout China's economic growth and rise to global-power status as achievements, but it seems to me that a far more important question is how those reflect on the quality of life of the average citizen. Living under extreme authoritarianism, lack of personal freedoms, and, for many people, a low income doesn't paint a great picture of the CCP and their system of governance.
 

Kfox

Well-Known Member
I would like to ask all the staunchest defenders of Laissez-faire and neo-liberism, why they think socialism is a bad idea.
But also defenders of Socialism and Marxism can express their take and strengthen or correct the OP.

Also from a spiritual point of view.
I think that we live in a over-exploited world. And Capitalism has pushed people to over-exploit the planet, so we need to re-think of ourselves as co-workers of social justice.
And not makers of inequality and injustice.

This ephemeral life is meaningless if it's all dedicated to over-exploitation of resources, which is fomented by greed.

Thank yous for your answers :)
The pilgrims tried socialism and it failed. In America I think we learned from the mistakes of our past. At it’s basic level, I think capitalism is a moral system because it requires you to improve someone else’s life (or at least convince them you are improving their life) before you can benefit from capitalism. If mankind were morally perfect, I believe socialism would be an excellent idea, but mankind is not; but capitalism is an excellent idea for imperfect people.
 

Valjean

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Well theoretically Communist China and the old USSR are touted as the people in charge.

We see what that brought to the table.
The revolution may have been inspired by socialist ideas, but the Bolshevics never delivered after the civil war. The USSR was totalitarian and repressive from the start.
 

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
I would like to ask all the staunchest defenders of Laissez-faire and neo-liberism, why they think socialism is a bad idea.
But also defenders of Socialism and Marxism can express their take and strengthen or correct the OP.

Also from a spiritual point of view.
I think that we live in a over-exploited world. And Capitalism has pushed people to over-exploit the planet, so we need to re-think of ourselves as co-workers of social justice.
And not makers of inequality and injustice.

This ephemeral life is meaningless if it's all dedicated to over-exploitation of resources, which is fomented by greed.

Thank yous for your answers :)

Depends what you mean by "socialism". I have come to understand that it means different things to different people.
To some, it means North Korea style communism. To others, it just means a general policy of solidarity and governmental programs like universal healtcare, wellfare, paid sick leave, minimum wage, minimum paid leave, etc.

Personally I consider myself as being a "socialist regulation capitalist".
Socialist in the sense that I think worker rights are important. This to avoid exploitation of the workforce (minimum wage, minimum paid leave, paid sick leave, etc).
Socialist in the solidarity sense (universal health care, government funded education, etc).

Capitalist in the "free market of ideas and enterprise" sense. Anybody, assuming a minimum of qualifications (like notions of accounting etc), can start up a company based on whatever idea they have and as long as the practices are within the confines of the law. They are also free to make as much money as they like with that, with no obligation at all to "redistribute" their earned wealth.

"regulation capitalism" in the sense that they can't just do whatever they want and that they are heald accountable for consequences of their business. This usually only becomes a problem once they become big enough. With great wealth comes great power. And there, I see capitalism failing today. Take the facebooks and googles as examples. Their practices concerning privacy etc are extremely worrying. Their entire business model, or for the most part at least, is literally based on at least the very grey area of privacy laws and in many cases it is blatantly in violation with it. The problem is that they are so filthy rich that even monster fines don't really hurt them. Some of them have received fines of over a billion dollars. This doesn't even dent them. They have reservers of several 10s of billions. They earn it back in a single quarter with ease. The authorities should have more means to deal with these companies. But that takes political cohones and those are very much lacking most of the times.


It's a very hard problem to solve though. It's an extremely thin line between having enough power for proper regulation without it crossing over into having enough power for oppression or restriction of basic (capitalist) freedoms.

Another problem is also that once these problems become big enough that they require being dealt with, these huge conglomerates are so intertwined with the overal economy that actually dealing with them could potentially have extreme impact on the economy as a whole.

Imagine if proper privacy laws were voted and enforced. Both google and facebook's core business model would be rendered illegal overnight. Imagine the devastating hit this would deal to wallstreet and the ripple effect that would cause throughout the entire trading economy.

Plenty of businesses literally depend on the services provided by these companies...
 
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