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What is wrong with those people who believe it is okay to marry prepubescent children? :(

sovietchild

sovietchild

Well-Known Member
PopeADope said:
Matthew 11:27 - "All things have been committed to me by my Father. No one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him.
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Is that a legitimate quote from Jesus?
 
SomeRandom

SomeRandom

Still learning to be wise
Staff member
Premium Member
sovietchild said:
Really? To me she look like 18.
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That's a pretty young looking 18 year old. I mean a pro photoshoot would make one look younger by default. But regardless, it doesn't matter if they look old enough to consent. What matters is if they are old enough to consent.
 
sovietchild

sovietchild

Well-Known Member
SomeRandom said:
That's a pretty young looking 18 year old. I mean a pro photoshoot would make one look younger by default. But regardless, it doesn't matter if they look old enough to consent. What matters is if they are old enough to consent.
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Some people mature faster. Some men have beards before 18, and some only after 25.
 
SomeRandom

SomeRandom

Still learning to be wise
Staff member
Premium Member
sovietchild said:
Some people mature faster. Some men have beards before 18, and some only after 25.
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Yeah and that occurs AFTER puberty. Last I checked a prepubescent child has not gone through puberty to begin with. Also puberty is not really a good marker of maturity. Because you know with the emotional and brain development that does not necessarily coincide with actual maturity. Boys develop slower than girls in emotional maturity (generally speaking.) But that usually occurs throughout adolescence which is marked as the period of between 13 and 18. Which is still not 9.

It's one thing to find child marriage like in Ancient times, it's quite another to find it in modern times. Because we should know better by now.
 
Thanda

Thanda

Well-Known Member
SomeRandom said:
Yeah, kind of does. But even if she weren't that doesn't matter. The law doesn't excuse someone from statutory rape of a minor if said minor looks old enough to consent! It's the age not how old they look.
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But clearly this isn't a debate about law but about morality. In some countries the age of consent is 12, others 14 others 18 and others 21. So there is nothing definitive about the "law". Hence this discussion is about what should be rather than about what is.

In light of that @sovietchild seems to be implying that age is arbitrary and doesn't really account for the diversity of human development and it's pace, both emotional, mental, physical etc. "Age aint nothing but a number" is the gist of his argument, I gather.
 
SomeRandom

SomeRandom

Still learning to be wise
Staff member
Premium Member
Thanda said:
But clearly th is isn't a debate about law but about morality. In some countries the age of consent is 12, others 14 others 18 and others 21. So there is nothing definitive about the "law". Hence this discussion is about what should be rather than about what is.

In light of that @sovietchild seems to be implying that age is arbitrary and doesn't really account for the diversity of human development and it's pace, both emotional, mental, physical etc. "Age aint nothing but a number" is the gist of his argument, I gather.
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And in normal circumstances, I would agree. Puberty is a highly nuanced biological phenomenon.
Age ain't nothing but a number would be a thing if we were discussing adolescence. But this topic is specifically about people who marry pre (emphasis on the pre) pubescent children. Age is very much relevant in that particular caveat.

For the record 14 might be okay in some circumstances, even legal in areas where the age of consent is actually higher like 16 or even 18. But 12 is kind of twisted imo. And even taking that into account, just because the age of consent is legally "low" like 16, does not necessarily mean that said minor is able to get legally married. Over here the legal age of consent is 16, but you still have to be an adult to marry someone. Which is legally considered to be the age of 18.
 
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Thanda

Thanda

Well-Known Member
SomeRandom said:
And in normal circumstances, I would agree. Puberty is a highly nuanced biological phenomenon.
Age ain't nothing but a number would be a thing if we were discussing adolescence. But this topic is specifically about people who marry pre (emphasis on the pre) pubescent children. Age is very much relevant in that particular caveat.
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The OP asks why some people think it is okay to marry pre pubescent girls. Firstly there is no definitive age for puberty, only average ages. FYI the average age for girls is 11 and for boys it is 12. This means biology is a physical manifestation rather than a simple function of time. Some can be 9 and have reach puberty - and thus qualify as pubescent- and someone can be 13 and still be pre-pubescent. So we should not bring in the subject of age but rather the subject physical and emotional development.

Sovietchild's argument (which started with a picture) is that age is no indicator of development of any kind. In some societies children grow up very quickly because that is what is expected of them. In other countries people can remain children until they are 21. These differing experiences and expectations are likely to influence the pace at which children develop and become "ready" for marriage. I put the word ready in quotes because it is not entirely certain that all cultures around the world have the same expectation for marriages and consequently that they all agree in what it means to be ready for it. Some cultures, for example, only require that a woman be at a stage where she seems likely to be able to give birth - since in those cultures that is seen as the primary purpose of all marriages.
 
SomeRandom

SomeRandom

Still learning to be wise
Staff member
Premium Member
Thanda said:
The OP asks why some people think it is okay to marry pre pubescent girls. Firstly there is no definitive age for puberty, only average ages. FYI the average age for girls is 11 and for boys it is 12. This means biology is a physical manifestation rather than a simple function of time. Some can be 9 and have reach puberty - and thus qualify as pubescent- and someone can be 13 and still be pre-pubescent. So we should not bring in the subject of age but rather the subject physical and emotional development.

Sovietchild's argument (which started with a picture) is that age is no indicator of development of any kind. In some societies children grow up very quickly because that is what is expected of them. In other countries people can remain children until they are 21. These differing experiences and expectations are likely to influence the pace at which children develop and become "ready" for marriage. I put the word ready in quotes because it is not entirely certain that all cultures around the world have the same expectation for marriages and consequently that they all agree in what it means to be ready for it. Some cultures, for example, only require that a woman be at a stage where she seems likely to be able to give birth - since in those cultures that is seen as the primary purpose of all marriages.
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Cultural norms have to be questioned. I'm sick of the whole "but it's my culture" being used as a shield against criticism and used as justification for horrible acts. Like if it's something benign being defended that would be one thing. But child marriages? Not worthy of defence IMO.
Just because my culture sees womanhood as the start of menstrual cycle doesn't mean that's correct. Emotional maturity is hard to measure but I find it extremely doubtful that any child is emotionally prepared for marriage by puberty. Even if we take into account various variations on the puberty stage of human development. Whilst it's not a one size fits all approach, I find it better to put the age of marriagability at 18 and sex somewhere in the teens. Sorry but I come from two different cultures and have seen that just because culture determines one is ready for marriage doesn't mean anything. At least at 18 one can be legally responsible for oneself even if they're not emotionally mature they're old enough to deal with the consequences better than any 12 or 11 year old.

Also at 11 or 12 it's far more likely that a pregnancy will come with some bad consequences, biologically speaking. The onset of puberty does not necessarily mean the body is capable of having a safe pregnancy. Rather the onset of puberty is merely the starting point of the stage. It's not like puberty ever happens all at once. Call me overprotective but I would rather not put a tween girl through such a thing.
 
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Thanda

Thanda

Well-Known Member
SomeRandom said:
Cultural norms have to be questioned. I'm sick of the whole "but it's my culture" being used as a shield against criticism and used as justification for horrible acts. Like if it's something benign being defended that would be one thing. But child marriages? Not worthy of defence IMO.
Just because my culture sees womanhood as the start of menstrual cycle doesn't mean that's correct. Emotional maturity is hard to measure but I find it extremely doubtful that any child is emotionally prepared for marriage by puberty. Even if we take into account various variations on the puberty stage of human development. Whilst it's not a one size fits all approach, I find it better to put the age of marriagability at 18 and sex somewhere in the teens. Sorry but I come from two different cultures and have seen that just because culture determines one is ready for marriage doesn't mean anything. At least at 18 one can be legally responsible for oneself even if they're not emotionally mature they're old enough to deal with the consequences better than any 12 or 11 year old.

Also at 11 or 12 it's far more likely that a pregnancy will come with some bad consequences, biologically speaking. The onset of puberty does not necessarily mean the body is capable of having a safe pregnancy. Rather the onset of puberty is merely the starting point of the stage. It's not like puberty ever happens all at once. Call me overprotective but I would rather not put a tween girl through such a thing.
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Cultural norms do need to be questioned and criticized, I agree. But I am playing devils advocate here and showing why things are not as clear cut as we might like them to be.

I question, for example, why you think people who are ready for sex (and the risk of pregnancy) are not ready for marriage. In many cultures that is an absolute. If you start getting engaged in adult activities (sex) you better be prepared for adult responsibilities.

In most western societies marriage is no longer about children but about companionship and love. There is no proof that this is the correct or superior view on marriage. In many other societies marriage is still very much a functional institution whose main purpose is to bring forth the next generation while instilling societal values in the offspring, maintaining family connections and societal stability. This difference in view very much affects the qualities that are viewed as necessary to have before marriage.
 
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