What is Your Disbelief?

[Tomef]

Yeah, but your rules for words are still not all of the world

Who says they are? Where are you getting these random ideas from?

 

[Tomef]

People still believe differently than you

Of course, but belief in an imaginary character in a book is belief in an imaginary character in a book, regardless of anything else. That is what defines religious belief in the West. I’ve never met anyone whose belief did not relate to an imaginary character in a book, afaik in non literate societies ‘book’ can be replaced with story.

 

[Tomef]

That is the actual falsification of your belief system.

‘Things are different to each other’ is not a belief system. Acknowledging that language operates according to rules is not a belief system, Acknowledging that different elements of experience follow certain rules - e,g, punching yourself in the face hurts - is not a belief system. These are acknowledgements of experience. If I were to say, which I haven’t, that the same rules will always apply, or that words mean things are physically real, then those statements would form part of a belief system,

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

You really don’t get it. Language is one example of one set of rules, Another rule is that a person and a fictional character are different, regardless of the context, they are different concepts, real or not, Difference is factual. That is not ‘my set of rules’. Are you saying that you think a person in a book, someone who never existed outside of the words on the page, is the same thing as a person who is alive and thinks? If you think they are the same, explain why, if you think they are different, on what basis do you think they are different? According to what rules?

I really don't think that your rule for gods will stop other humans for believing differently than you.
I can observe that there is a difference in how humans believe and I can observe that for you and I.

Now your normative rule for imagined gods is that. A normative rule that is not actual, real or a fact. That you don't understand that is not my problem.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

‘Things are different to each other’ is not a belief system. Acknowledging that language operates according to rules is not a belief system, Acknowledging that different elements of experience follow certain rules - e,g, punching yourself in the face hurts - is not a belief system. These are acknowledgements of experience. If I were to say, which I haven’t, that the same rules will always apply, or that words mean things are physically real, then those statements would form part of a belief system,

Yeah, but that it hurts is not objective, actual or real as independent of your mind. Your dog is.

There are 3 factors in play. Physical, social and mental. You want to make a rule that only the physical counts. But your rule is mental. Not all experinces are physical.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

Of course, but belief in an imaginary character in a book is belief in an imaginary character in a book, regardless of anything else. That is what defines religious belief in the West. I’ve never met anyone whose belief did not relate to an imaginary character in a book, afaik in non literate societies ‘book’ can be replaced with story.

Well, my beleifs as without proof are that the universe is in a non-personal way real, fair, orderly and knowable. So I have a belief without proof in something I imagine.
And I act on that with faith as trust in that it works, regardless of it being without proof.

 

[Tomef]

You want to make a rule that only the physical counts.

How did you get that idea from anything I said? Rather than making things up, I think it would be more useful to respond to what I actually say, rather than what you imagine I am thinking.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

How did you get that idea from anything I said? Rather than making things up, I think it would be more useful to respond to what I actually say, rather than what you imagine I am thinking.

Well, try to get this in to your thinking. It is a fact of the world that you can observe religious humans. It is real, actual, exists and takes place. Start there!!!

 

[Tomef]

Well, my beleifs as without proof are that the universe is in a non-personal way real, fair, orderly and knowable. So I have a belief without proof in something I imagine.
And I act on that with faith as trust in that it works, regardless of it being without proof.

Yes, and within that universe you believe in, according to the rules by which it functions, is there a difference between a person, say someone your work with or a person who serves you coffee, and a fictional character in a book you read? If so, what is the difference, and how do you know?

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

Yes, and within that universe you believe in, according to the rules by which it functions, is there a difference between a person, say someone your work with or a person who serves you coffee, and a fictional character in a book you read? If so, what is the difference, and how do you know?

Well, I only observe religious people in books. They are not actually real and don't exist. That you imagine that is daft and bullocks.

 

[Tomef]

Well, try to get this in to your thinking. It is a fact of the world that you can observe religious humans. It is real, actual, exists and takes place. Start there!!!

Yes, there are people who are religious. There are also people who believe that the world is flat, that the moon landings were faked, and so on. There are many beliefs that are rooted in fiction, the important thing is to recognise them as such. I wonder sometimes for example what motivates the behaviour of my dogs. In reality, I have no idea, but I have imaginary ides about it that I ponder occasionally. Those imaginary ideas are imaginary ideas, based on fictions.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

Yes, there are people who are religious. There are also people who believe that the world is flat, that the moon landings were faked, and so on. There are many beliefs that are rooted in fiction, the important thing is to recognise them as such. I wonder sometimes for example what motivates the behaviour of my dogs. In reality, I have no idea, but I have imaginary ides about it that I ponder occasionally. Those imaginary ideas are imaginary ideas, based on fictions,

Yeah, and you deicde what is important for all humans. What rule are you using there???

 

[Tomef]

Well, I only observe religious people in books. They are not actually real and don't exist. That you imagine that is daft and bullocks.

That I imagine what? I don’t understand anything you said here.

The question is, do you recognise a difference between a person you meet and a character in a book?

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

That I imagine what? I don’t understand anything you said here.

The question is, do you recognise a different between a person you meet and a character in a book?

With evidence how is that important? And what rule are you using for important?

 

[Tomef]

With evidence how is that important? And what rule are you using for important?

Whether or not you think it’s important is up to you. If you read what I said, I’m talking about how we know things are different because they are defined differently, at least some of the time because of rules, for instance the difference between a sentence and a string of letters with no meaning. And evidence for what? Evidence that fictional characters are different to real people?

A real person conforms to certain standards. That is one difference between a real person and some fictional characters. A real person, for example is not omniscient and omnipresent. Before we can have any sort of conversation about difference though, you first need to get past your notion that everything comes down to whether it’s all real or not. It isn’t necessary to have definite proof of objective reality to understand that the things we are talking about are different to each other. If you really don’t get that, there’s no point in talking about those differences.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

Whether or not you think it’s important is up to you. ...

Then we will stop. I use a different rule for important.

 

[Nakosis]

It is the realm of ideas that is distinct from any physical realm

It is things that exist mentally rather than physically

Ok, please provide a reference that the noosphere requires an non-physical component.

Ideas can be represented within the workings of a brain or in a computer

However those representations are not the ideas

Then want are "ideas". And, if you like, please explain why they would require a non-physical component.

Do you define a dog as being the letters D O and G placed together in a certain sequence?????

A dog is a physical entity with physical components. You store representations of these physical components in your brain which you can recall and your brain uses the same physical process you used to physically perceive the dog in the first place to recreate for you the moment of this physical experience.

A mental existence is just as much of an existence as any physical existence

Yes as they are both physical processes.

You've just developed a personal dislike for the notion that's all that's going on here

You really have no idea of my personal likes or dislikes. You can't really think you can use a lack of knowledge to support your argument can you?

 

[Eddi]

Ok, please provide a reference that the noosphere requires an non-physical component.



Then want are "ideas". And, if you like, please explain why they would require a non-physical component.



A dog is a physical entity with physical components. You store representations of these physical components in your brain which you can recall and your brain uses the same physical process you used to physically perceive the dog in the first place to recreate for you the moment of this physical experience.



Yes as they are both physical processes.



You really have no idea of my personal likes or dislikes. You can't really think you can use a lack of knowledge to support your argument can you?

I don't really care about this issue and it doesn't really interest me and I'm not totally sure I believe some of the things I have said

I don't want to get into a protracted debate about this

I think your beliefs are reasonable even though I think differently

Take care and have a good day

 

[Muffled]

My mom exists. She's passed, but I think of her every day.

It all depends on what you consider "is" means.

I believe my grandfather is now my son. Of course it is possible that it is just genetics making them so similar in nature.

 

[Nakosis]

I believe my grandfather is now my son. Of course it is possible that it is just genetics making them so similar in nature.

Certainly a part of him is there. We continue to exist through the DNA we pass on to our children. I least that is how I see it. Our consciousness may or may not be lost but physically at least we continue on.