• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

What is your thoughts on Abortion?

SomeRandom

Still learning to be wise
Staff member
Premium Member
Sure I understand sometimes interference is necessary. I just don't see a need to interfere where it is not necessary.
So are you also against plastic surgery? Even if it’s to give some sense of normalcy to a person after a tragedy? I mean if someone is, say, burnt alive and they are saved. Should they forgo plastic surgery just because the “interference is unnecessary?”
We do all sorts of unnecessary things, we interefere when it’s unnecessary all the time. That’s the reality of modern life, mordern luxuries. If one only did what was absolutely necessary then we wouldn’t take vitamins, or indeed undertake prenatal care.

Ok, then I'll try to be less idealistic about the sacrifices of motherhood.
It’s okay to be idealistic or even to romanticise something if one is inclined to do so. But when discussing real life consequences and law, perhaps a more realistic approach is needed.

Nobody is owed anything, it's our choice how to act towards another living being.

A zygote is as much a living being as bacteria or a mosquito. At least that’s what I glean from biology. Do you care if someone kills off bacteria?
“Living being” is kind of vague. Jeffrey Dahmer is a living being, technically.
 
Last edited:

Valjean

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Nakosis said:
Sure I understand sometimes interference is necessary. I just don't see a need to interfere where it is not necessary.
But what constitutes necessity? Wouldn't the planet's well being be better served by allowing natural checks and balances to keep human population in check, like all other organisms?

Whose interests take moral precedence. Why?
 

Dell

Asteroid insurance?
Explain your reasoning
If the human race can't see the error of abortion even more so late term abortions, we have a long way to go to be considered a highly intelligent society. If the conception is not dealt with and the fetus is allowed to develop the only exception should be is saving the life of the mother.

It all boils down to selfish irrational irresponsibility 99% of the time. For those cases, if catching an incurable STD's was as easy as getting pregnate, I bet those people would consider being proactive prior and use protection and avoid risk of a high probability of death or torment.

Late term abortions are sick, like Ted Bundy or Jeffery Dahmer sick. The only difference between the born child and unborn child is location. How backwards our society still is if we can't comprehend that.

Laws are usually written to protect the innocent not the irresponsible.
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
Explain your reasoning

I disagree with it. Having sex always buts a woman at risk of being pregnant. It's almost like not taking responsibility you put yourself in risk of having.

I understand why a woman would have an abortion say, for the health of a child or unintentional pregnancy. I understand why it's justified; but, justification doesn't make it moral.
 

David1967

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Why would the foetus' history affect it's moral status? Does a foetus conceived by rape have less right to life than a foetus conceived in marriage?
Whom does abortion sin against? What makes it a sin if it's morality varies so?

Despite my post, I do concede that you make a valid point.
 

Skreeper

Member
If the human race can't see the error of abortion even more so late term abortions, we have a long way to go to be considered a highly intelligent society. If the conception is not dealt with and the fetus is allowed to develop the only exception should be is saving the life of the mother.

It all boils down to selfish irrational irresponsibility 99% of the time. For those cases, if catching an incurable STD's was as easy as getting pregnate, I bet those people would consider being proactive prior and use protection and avoid risk of a high probability of death or torment.

Late term abortions are sick, like Ted Bundy or Jeffery Dahmer sick. The only difference between the born child and unborn child is location. How backwards our society still is if we can't comprehend that.

Laws are usually written to protect the innocent not the irresponsible.

Do you think a person has the right to use the body of another as life-support against their will/ without their consent? Do you think consent is a concept we can simply toss out when it comes to pregnancy?
 

Nakosis

Non-Binary Physicalist
Premium Member
So are you also against plastic surgery? Even if it’s to give some sense of normalcy to a person after a tragedy? I mean if someone is, say, burnt alive and they are saved. Should they forgo plastic surgery just because the “interference is unnecessary?”

Not up to me to define "unnecessary" for someone else.

We do all sorts of unnecessary things, we interefere when it’s unnecessary all the time. That’s the reality of modern life, mordern luxuries. If one only did what was absolutely necessary then we wouldn’t take vitamins, or indeed undertake prenatal care.

I don't care what you or other people find necessary or unnecessary as long as it's not interfering with me.

It’s okay to be idealistic or even to romanticise something if one is inclined to do so. But when discussing real life consequences and law, perhaps a more realistic approach is needed.

I was just responding to your comment, whichever way you want it.

A zygote is as much a living being as bacteria or a mosquito. At least that’s what I glean from biology.

That's your opinion which you are free to have.

Do you care if someone kills off bacteria?
“Living being” is kind of vague. Jeffrey Dahmer is a living being, technically.

What someone else does is their issue. I don't know why you keep bringing up other folks. I was expressing my views. You want to talk about what some folks you thought up in your head might do.
 

1213

Well-Known Member
...A foetus is an insentient cell mass, with no self-awareness, no anticipation of futurity, no self-interest. A foetus doesn't care whether it's aborted. It's not aware that it even exists.

How do you know that?

…This, by the way, is not the case with cows and chickens, yet we have no compunction against killing them..

But how do you know that? If unborn baby is just cell mass, all animals can also be called only cell mass.
 

SomeRandom

Still learning to be wise
Staff member
Premium Member
Not up to me to define "unnecessary" for someone else.



I don't care what you or other people find necessary or unnecessary as long as it's not interfering with me.



I was just responding to your comment, whichever way you want it.



That's your opinion which you are free to have.



What someone else does is their issue. I don't know why you keep bringing up other folks. I was expressing my views. You want to talk about what some folks you thought up in your head might do.
So you’re pro choice?
 

Valjean

Veteran Member
Premium Member
How do you know that?
I don't, but there's little reason to believe that sentience, which seems to be mediated through the brain, exists in such an unformed structure.
But how do you know that? If unborn baby is just cell mass, all animals can also be called only cell mass.
Sorry, I don't take your point. All animals are just non-sentient cell masses, at that stage.
 

Dell

Asteroid insurance?
Do you think a person has the right to use the body of another as life-support against their will/ without their consent? Do you think consent is a concept we can simply toss out when it comes to pregnancy?
I think the problem as I've said is a result of irresponsibility 99% of the time. Life support? You mean a 9 month situation the host willingly caused in the first place? Pregnancy and STD's are obtained the same way. One the host has to kill the other may kill the host... seems the logical thing would be to be proactive in prevention. It may save your life and mentally relieve you from the stress of what if.... Bottom line abortion of a pregnancy should only have to be performed to save the life of the mother. Anything else is sad and tragic.
 

crossfire

LHP Mercuræn Feminist Heretic Bully ☿
Premium Member
I think the problem as I've said is a result of irresponsibility 99% of the time. Life support? You mean a 9 month situation the host willingly caused in the first place? Pregnancy and STD's are obtained the same way. One the host has to kill the other may kill the host... seems the logical thing would be to be proactive in prevention. It may save your life and mentally relieve you from the stress of what if.... Bottom line abortion of a pregnancy should only have to be performed to save the life of the mother. Anything else is sad and tragic.
Life in general is sad and tragic. We don't live in paradise. Abortion to save the life of the mother is certainly sad and tragic.
 

stvdv

Veteran Member
Explain your reasoning

What a coitiscoincidence:
1) male @Alex Schwartz is born on oct 30, 2000 and starts a thread on abortion and
2) female @Jillian Lowe is born on nov 01, 2000 also start a thread on abortion.
Another coincidence, both do this just 7 minutes apart.
Another coincidence, do you both have babies coming? maybe together?

Or are you a twin, born 7 minutes apart? This is possible according to your given birth dates.

I do believe in coincidence. But here it seems a bit too much of a coincidence.
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
When a species is overpopulated, it is not the time to make laws that exacerbate that problem. With that context, it shouldn't even be up for debate.
The danger I see with this sort of thinking is that it could end with pushing people into getting abortions who want to have a child.

I'm pro-choice, but this isn't just about maintaining abortion rights. It's also about maintaining the freedom not to have to have an abortion. This includes providing supports to pregnant people and new parents that, all else being equal, might lead to pregnant people choosing to have the baby more often.
 

Ponder This

Well-Known Member
It's the woman's body, which means it's her choice.
Anything else would be a gross violation of her rights.

We generally try to stop people from harming themselves (or from harming their children who are already born). So if you are going to claim it is her right, then you need explain why it is her right. You need to explain why is it not a mental illness on her part nor an abandonment of her responsibilities.

No, it's not the woman's body. The foetus is a genetically unique organism. It may depend on the woman; be parasitical to the woman, but it's a different organism.
I see your point, but there is no business of selling foetal parts. Leftover tissue from surgery, blood draws, abortions, &c is either incinerated or sold, at cost, to research organizations or medical groups that can use them to save other lives. Nobody makes a profit.are if it's aborted. It has no desire to exist
Murdered? That's a loaded word, as is 'children'.
A foetus is an insentient cell mass, with no self-awareness, no anticipation of futurity, no self-interest. A foetus doesn't care whether it's aborted. It's not aware that it even exists.

This, by the way, is not the case with cows and chickens, yet we have no compunction against killing them.
I fail to see what principles are at play here.

The fact that our children (the ones that have already been born) are different organisms doesn't justify abandoning our parental obligations to them (letting them starve to death, throwing them off cliffs, leaving them to the wolves, etc). Why is it different when they are unborn?

It's not okay to kill people as long as they are sleeping (or 'unaware'), if indeed they are unaware. I do not accept your claim that fetuses are insentient and I would say that fetuses, generally, have a natural desire to be born. I would argue that the apparent purpose of the activities occurring within a fetus in the womb is to be born.

Why would the foetus' history affect it's moral status? Does a foetus conceived by rape have less right to life than a foetus conceived in marriage?
Whom does abortion sin against? What makes it a sin if it's morality varies so?

It's the moral status of the mother that's in question here (not the fetus).
Clarification: Sin is a transgression against divine law. So if abortion is a sin (not saying it is a sin, but if it were a sin), then it would be the mother transgressing against divine law and not the mother transgressing against the fetus.

The mother is making a decision and the question will be: did she betray her obligations? What obligation does she have towards the fetus, if any? And, if she is married, then her obligations may include an obligation to her husband (an obligation she does not have to a rapist).

I disagree with it. Having sex always buts a woman at risk of being pregnant. It's almost like not taking responsibility you put yourself in risk of having.

I understand why a woman would have an abortion say, for the health of a child or unintentional pregnancy. I understand why it's justified; but, justification doesn't make it moral.

What makes it moral or immoral?

Do you think a person has the right to use the body of another as life-support against their will/ without their consent? Do you think consent is a concept we can simply toss out when it comes to pregnancy?

The obligation of the parents to the fetus is the issue here as opposed to the right of the fetus to be supported by the mother's body. It's sounds the same, but it's a very significant subtle difference. If the mother's body is unable to sustain the fetus for some reason (not taken as a deliberate action), the fetus is not being denied a right to the mother's body. Similarly, babies that are born prematurely are not being denied a right to their mother's body. The question is not the rights of the fetus, but rather the obligations of the parents.

TL;DR
Adulthood brings responsibility, that is my opinion.
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
What makes it moral or immoral?

Taking a life--of an unborn child to me is immoral. I understand the justifications. I mean, I understand why people want to give a murderer the death penalty because he took a life. To me, two wrongs don't make a right.

I don't know the terminology. I feel it's immoral to stop the growth of child. Criteria of morality is not taking a life.
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
We generally try to stop people from harming themselves (or from harming their children who are already born). So if you are going to claim it is her right, then you need explain why it is her right. You need to explain why is it not a mental illness on her part nor an abandonment of her responsibilities.
If - for reasons that escape me - we grant the fetus all the rights of a person, then the situation is analogous to organ or tissue donation: we always have the right to deny others the use of our bodies. Anyone can refuse to donate an organ, bodily fluids, or tissue. This is still true even if the recipient will certainly die without it. This is still true even if the person refusing is the parent of the person who need the organ/blood/etc.

Do you think that people need to "explain their right" to not be forced to donate a kidney?
 

Valjean

Veteran Member
Premium Member
We generally try to stop people from harming themselves (or from harming their children who are already born). So if you are going to claim it is her right, then you need explain why it is her right. You need to explain why is it not a mental illness on her part nor an abandonment of her responsibilities.
What responsibility does she have to a foetus? What characteristics does a foetus have that gives it a claim to moral consideration?
The fact that our children (the ones that have already been born) are different organisms doesn't justify abandoning our parental obligations to them (letting them starve to death, throwing them off cliffs, leaving them to the wolves, etc). Why is it different when they are unborn?
Because the born have characteristics that entitle them to moral consideration -- which a foetus lacks. A baby is a person, a foetus is not.
It's not okay to kill people as long as they are sleeping (or 'unaware'), if indeed they are unaware. I do not accept your claim that fetuses are insentient and I would say that fetuses, generally, have a natural desire to be born. I would argue that the apparent purpose of the activities occurring within a fetus in the womb is to be born.
OK, if you can produce some evidence that foetuses are sentient in the way you describe, I'd have to agree, but I'm currently unaware of any evidence that a foetus is aware of itself in any way, much less as an independent individual. I don't believe it has any "desire to be born."
t's the moral status of the mother that's in question here (not the fetus).
Clarification: Sin is a transgression against divine law. So if abortion is a sin (not saying it is a sin, but if it were a sin), then it would be the mother transgressing against divine law and not the mother transgressing against the fetus.
This is a deontological appeal to 'rules', without consideration of facts or consequences.
What makes it moral or immoral?
The natural rights of the individual person?
The obligation of the parents to the fetus is the issue here as opposed to the right of the fetus to be supported by the mother's body. It's sounds the same, but it's a very significant subtle difference. If the mother's body is unable to sustain the fetus for some reason (not taken as a deliberate action), the fetus is not being denied a right to the mother's body. Similarly, babies that are born prematurely are not being denied a right to their mother's body. The question is not the rights of the fetus, but rather the obligations of the parents.
Does a tumor or a parasite have a natural right to be supported by the mother's body?
Adulthood brings responsibility, that is my opinion.
I agree, but wouldn't a simplistic appeal to a rule book be an abandonment of the adult responsibility to make moral judgements based on consequences and principle?
 
Last edited:
Top