"What Jesus REALLY meant was ...."

[John1.12]

What is self-evident is that you're conflating things.

Paul was the main missionary to the Church in the diaspora, thus operating neither in Jerusalem nor in Antioch. He even refers to himself as such. When the issue of circumcision comes up, he goes back to Jerusalem to talk with Peter about this, and it was the latter's decision that was paramount.

When the apostles are listed, Peter's name is almost always first, sometimes just stating "Peter and the others". It is Peter whom Jesus tells to "feed my sheep". It is Peter whom Jesus says "Thou art Peter, ...". It is Jesus who gives Peter and the other Apostles the right to loosen or bind sins. Etc.

Near the end of the 1st century, it is Ignatius of Antioch who tells Clement of Rome that the Bishop of Rome has to take the lead in helping to organize the bishops throughout the known world back then, and this process continued on through the centuries even though disputes did arise over time.

But the reason I even responded to you at all at first has nothing to do with the above but everything to do with the fact that you cited you opinion as a fact, which is simply not serious theology. Thus, that's the point.


ADDED: BTW, it was this Church that selected the canon of the Bible you use, and that was done in the 4th century. The canon did not select itself since there were over 1000 "books" to choose from according to theologian Willian Barclay [Anglican].

If you read the book of Acts you will see its Peter and the 11 who are preaching only to Israel. Thats the central mission of the disciples all the way up to Acts 7 . When they Stone Stephen ,the council demonstrates a rejection of their messiah ,yet again , the focus begins to shift ( By God) onto the samaritans ,then the gentiles. Then we get an apostle to the gentiles. From this moment on Peter shrinks back and Paul is in focus . The revelation Paul receives his revelation not from Peter or any man but directly from Jesus. Its Paul who is given the mission to instruct the Church ( hence 13 epistles and only 2 letters from Peter ) Paul is tasked with the Gospel of grace, the mysteries, and to suffer and to be shown in Paul FIRST the example to all after him through what Paul goes through ,as the example to all believers after him ( Not Peter )
1 Tim 1
16Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting.

Acts 9

15¶But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel:

16For I will shew him how great things he must suffer for my name's sake.

 

[John1.12]

You literally haven't a clue of what you're talking about. Here's the Sunday liturgy, so tell us which parts are not true Christianity:

Introductory Rites

• Entrance
• Greeting
• Penitential Act
• Glory to God
• Collect

Liturgy of the Word

• First Reading [OT or NT]
• Responsorial Psalm {OT]
• Second Reading (on Sundays and solemnities){NT]
• Gospel Acclamation
• Gospel [NT]
• Homily [must reflect at least two of the above]
• Profession of Faith (on Sundays, solemnities, and special occasions)
• Universal Prayer

Liturgy of the Eucharist

• Presentation of the Gifts and Preparation of the Altar
• Prayer over the Offerings
• Eucharistic Prayer
  • Preface
  • Holy, Holy, Holy
  • First half of prayer, including Consecration
  • Mystery of Faith
  • Second half of prayer, ending with Doxology
• The Lord's Prayer
• Sign of Peace
• Lamb of God
• Communion
• Prayer after Communion

Concluding Rites

• Optional announcements
• Greeting and Blessing
• Dismissal

[brackets are mine to explain where the words come from]

Its what Catholicism teaches behind those headings thats in error According to the bible. A simple question reveals the problem. How is a person saved today according to you ?

 

[John1.12]

Jesus preached his Gospel of the Kingdom of Heaven for 3+ years.

The leaders of Judaism didn't like what he said.

They sent out spies and quibblers to try to discredit Jesus and had their butts handed to them.

Finally the Jews had Jesus arrested and put through a trumped up trial.

They had the Romans put Jesus to death.

After Jesus returned from the dead, met with apostles and believers he returned to his office in heaven.

After Jesus left a NEW Gospel began to emerge from Peter and more so Paul. They speculated that Jesus died as a human sacrifice to pay mankind's sin debt and make forgiveness possible.

Then they started a new religion about Jesus.

Much of the original Gospel that Jesus taught was lost.


The End.

This is where you go wrong :
// After Jesus returned from the dead, met with apostles and believers he returned to his office in heaven.

After Jesus left a NEW Gospel began to emerge from Peter and more so Paul. They speculated that Jesus died as a human sacrifice to pay mankind's sin debt and make forgiveness possible.

Then they started a new religion about Jesus.

Much of the original Gospel that Jesus taught was lost.//
This part ,there is no evidence for . If I may ask ,what religion / organisation/ group / church do you belong / associate/ attend / follow?

 

[Vinayaka]

Hinduism and Buddhism see Jesus as a spiritual guide of sorts . An enlightened one.

\

Not all Hindus, only the very universalist ones. Many Hindus, like me, see him as irrelevant, of a different paradigm, but respect your right of belief. Personally, I'd far rather trust a Christian about Jesus than a universalist Hindu, just as I would rather trust a Murugan (common South Indian Hindu god of which I'm a devotee) bhaktar about Murugan than either a Christian or a Hindu who isn't familiar with Murugan.

The false horizontal transfer (taking one concept and falsely applying it to another) is common though. Nice topic.

 

[metis]

If you read the book of Acts you will see its Peter and the 11 who are preaching only to Israel. Thats the central mission of the disciples all the way up to Acts 7 . When they Stone Stephen ,the council demonstrates a rejection of their messiah ,yet again , the focus begins to shift ( By God) onto the samaritans ,then the gentiles. Then we get an apostle to the gentiles. From this moment on Peter shrinks back and Paul is in focus . The revelation Paul receives his revelation not from Peter or any man but directly from Jesus. Its Paul who is given the mission to instruct the Church ( hence 13 epistles and only 2 letters from Peter ) Paul is tasked with the Gospel of grace, the mysteries, and to suffer and to be shown in Paul FIRST the example to all after him through what Paul goes through ,as the example to all believers after him ( Not Peter )
1 Tim 1
16Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting.

Acts 9

15¶But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel:

16For I will shew him how great things he must suffer for my name's sake.

Again, you keep conflating things through deviation. Nor do you even understand some of the narrative you wrote above, such as the fact that Paul had to be educated about the Gospel after his vision was complete. And the last sentence you quote undercuts your own premise as that reference is to Paul's role as a missionary, not the leader nor one of the Twelve.

 

[John1.12]

Who gets to decide what the "essentials" are, Barry? What may be "essential" to one Christian may be "non-essential" to another. Do you have some kind of an "in" with God that the rest of us are not aware of?

The bible does . For instance .
Gal 1 .

6¶I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:

7Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.

8But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.

9As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

 

[John1.12]

Michael of revelation incarnate as Jesus of Nazareth. Michael is the heavenly name for Jesus before this world was.

Ahh I see . You hold to the similar teaching of the Jehovah witnesses ? No that is not in the scriptures at all . Such a remarkable teaching would be explicit all over the bible. Yet it never says so . Not once .

 

[John1.12]

Again, you keep conflating things through deviation. Nor do you even understand some of the narrative you wrote above, such as the fact that Paul had to be educated about the Gospel after his vision was complete. And the last sentence you quote undercuts your own premise as that reference is to Paul's role as a missionary, not the leader nor one of the Twelve.

Not so .
Gal 1
10¶For do I now persuade men, or God? or do I seek to please men? for if I yet pleased men, I should not be the servant of Christ.

(cf. Acts 9:1–25 )
11¶But I certify you, brethren, that THE GOSPEL which was preached of me IS NOT after man .

12 For i neither received it of man , neither WAS I TAUGHT IT ,BUT BY THE REVELATION OF JESUS CHRIST .

 

[metis]

Its what Catholicism teaches behind those headings thats in error According to the bible. A simple question reveals the problem. How is a person saved today according to you ?

Your bigotry is appalling, and all you're trying to do with the above is to take attention away from your lie. Instead of responding to the fact that we do preach the Gospel, you cannot even be honest enough to admit maybe you're wrong on how you judged us.

To the question at the end of the above, God determines who'll be saved-- not you nor I.

 

[John1.12]

Your bigotry is appalling, and all you're trying to do with the above is to take attention away from your lie. Instead of responding to the fact that we do preach the Gospel, you cannot even be honest enough to admit maybe you're wrong on how you judged us.

To the question at the end of the above, God determines who'll be saved-- not you nor I.

What good news? How is a person saved today ?

 

[John1.12]

Your bigotry is appalling, and all you're trying to do with the above is to take attention away from your lie. Instead of responding to the fact that we do preach the Gospel, you cannot even be honest enough to admit maybe you're wrong on how you judged us.

To the question at the end of the above, God determines who'll be saved-- not you nor I.

Bigotry ? No ,all people are entitled to thier opinions . I completely believe that .

 

[Marcion]

Not all Hindus, only the very universalist ones. Many Hindus, like me, see him as irrelevant, of a different paradigm, but respect your right of belief. Personally, I'd far rather trust a Christian about Jesus than a universalist Hindu, just as I would rather trust a Murugan (common South Indian Hindu god of which I'm a devotee) bhaktar about Murugan than either a Christian or a Hindu who isn't familiar with Murugan.

The false horizontal transfer (taking one concept and falsely applying it to another) is common though. Nice topic.

In that sense you are very much like a fundamentalist Christian. You seem to a priori see all sorts of religious boundaries and differences. Interesting to see such a striking parallel.

 

[John1.12]

Your bigotry is appalling, and all you're trying to do with the above is to take attention away from your lie. Instead of responding to the fact that we do preach the Gospel, you cannot even be honest enough to admit maybe wrong on how you judged us.

To the question at the end of the above, God determines who'll be saved-- not you nor

Not all Hindus, only the very universalist ones. Many Hindus, like me, see him as irrelevant, of a different paradigm, but respect your right of belief. Personally, I'd far rather trust a Christian about Jesus than a universalist Hindu, just as I would rather trust a Murugan (common South Indian Hindu god of which I'm a devotee) bhaktar about Murugan than either a Christian or a Hindu who isn't familiar with Murugan.

The false horizontal transfer (taking one concept and falsely applying it to another) is common though. Nice topic.

This is a great point .

 

[metis]

Not so .
Gal 1
10¶For do I now persuade men, or God? or do I seek to please men? for if I yet pleased men, I should not be the servant of Christ.

(cf. Acts 9:1–25 )
11¶But I certify you, brethren, that THE GOSPEL which was preached of me IS NOT after man .

12 For i neither received it of man , neither WAS I TAUGHT IT ,BUT BY THE REVELATION OF JESUS CHRIST .

You are apparently unaware that Saul [later "Paul"] had to be educated, and that role fell on Ananias [Acts 9].

 

[Colt]

This is where you go wrong :
// After Jesus returned from the dead, met with apostles and believers he returned to his office in heaven.

After Jesus left a NEW Gospel began to emerge from Peter and more so Paul. They speculated that Jesus died as a human sacrifice to pay mankind's sin debt and make forgiveness possible.

Then they started a new religion about Jesus.

Much of the original Gospel that Jesus taught was lost.//
This part ,there is no evidence for . If I may ask ,what religion / organisation/ group / church do you belong / associate/ attend / follow?

Its a fact, its in the Bible. Jesus didn't preach the cross, it hadn't happened yet. He went first to his own but his own did not receive him. Christianity just ignores the fact that the Jews were supposed to receive Jesus and his original message.

 

[Colt]

Ahh I see . You hold to the similar teaching of the Jehovah witnesses ? No that is not in the scriptures at all . Such a remarkable teaching would be explicit all over the bible. Yet it never says so . Not once .

That God had a Son in heaven that was coming down from heaven isn't in the OT either. Some can't even see the preexistent Son in the NT.

The Son of God was a revelation to mankind. But its difficult to teach religious people anything knew so they rejected Jesus.

 

[John1.12]

You are apparently unaware that Saul [later "Paul"] had to be educated, and that role fell on Ananias [Acts 9].

15¶But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel:

16For I will shew him how great things he must suffer for my name's sake.

 

[John1.12]

Its a fact, its in the Bible. Jesus didn't preach the cross, it hadn't happened yet. He went first to his own but his own did not receive him. Christianity just ignores the fact that the Jews were supposed to receive Jesus and his original message.

//Christianity just ignores the fact that the Jews were supposed to receive Jesus and his original message//
No , this is an obvious fact .

 

[Colt]

//Christianity just ignores the fact that the Jews were supposed to receive Jesus and his original message//
No , this is an obvious fact .

Its an after thought by sacrifice minded people.

 

[John1.12]

Its a fact, its in the Bible. Jesus didn't preach the cross, it hadn't happened yet. He went first to his own but his own did not receive him. Christianity just ignores the fact that the Jews were supposed to receive Jesus and his original message.

//Jesus didn't preach the cross, //
Luke 18
31¶Then he took unto him the twelve, and said unto them, Behold, we go up to Jerusalem, and all things that are written by the prophets concerning the Son of man shall be accomplished.

32For he shall be delivered unto the Gentiles, and shall be mocked, and spitefully entreated, and spitted on:

33And they shall scourge him, and put him to death: and the third day he shall rise again.

34¶And they understood none of these things: and this saying was hid from them, neither knew they the things which were spoken.

Luke 24
21But we trusted that it had been he which should have redeemed Israel: and beside all this, to day is the third day since these things were done.

22Yea, and certain women also of our company made us astonished, which were early at the sepulchre;

23And when they found not his body, they came, saying, that they had also seen a vision of angels, which said that he was alive.

24And certain of them which were with us went to the sepulchre, and found it even so as the women had said: but him they saw not.

25¶Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken:

26Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory?

27And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.