Desert Snake
Veteran Member
And, why, in particular, do you interpret these verses, to mean 'men'? Why wouldn't you interpret this to mean angels? Example, the 'fallen angel', which is a parallel to the wording.
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What John 10:34 really means... Jesus isn't calling anyone, 'gods'.
- Thread starter Desert Snake
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And, why, in particular, do you interpret these verses, to mean 'men'? Why wouldn't you interpret this to mean angels? Example, the 'fallen angel', which is a parallel to the wording.
Desert Snake
Veteran Member
In other words, God, talking to divine beings, angels, and saying they will be cast down.
because the verse was directed towards mankind and the spirit comes from the one who gave it.
i saw the angels fall, descend, like stars, like meteors. Who is this that appears like the dawn, fair as the moon, bright as the sun, majestic as the stars in procession?
He had a dream in which he saw a stairway resting on the earth, with its top reaching to heaven, and the angels of God were ascending and descending on it.
John 1:51
He then added, “Very truly I tell you, you will see ‘heaven open, and the angels of God ascending and descending on’ the Son of Man.”
Then I saw another mighty angel coming down from heaven. He was robed in a cloud, with a rainbow above his head; his face was like the sun, and his legs were like fiery pillars.
Revelation 18:1
[ Lament Over Fallen Babylon ] After this I saw another angel coming down from heaven. He had great authority, and the earth was illuminated by his splendor.
Revelation 20:1
[ The Thousand Years ] And I saw an angel comingdown out of heaven, having the key to the Abyss and holding in his hand a great chain.
no one ascends except those who descend
No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven--the Son of Man and the Spirit returns to the one who gave it.
Faithofchristian
Well-Known Member
Yes it also applies to what Jesus said in
John 10:34--"Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, You are gods"
Meaning we belong to God.
You know, I like it when Christ Jesus will say things like this, people will think Jesus is meaning one thing, and all the while Jesus is saying completely different than what they are saying.
It's shows just how much people don't have spiritual discernment.to know what Jesus is actually saying and not saying.
You know scripture does say
"But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned" 1st Corinthians 2:14
Desert Snake
Veteran Member
I disagree. Psalms 82 is referring to God, talking to divine beings. Whether called angels, 'other gods', gods of the nations, or other, this clearly isn't men, that God, is talking to.
hmmm you must be reading some version that doesn't speak of man, or people. must be poor and needy angels. wonder why they wrote it for angel , if it was published for people. the postman put someone's letter in the wrong box. darn it
and yet a man wrote the song about people in verses 4-7.
4.Release the poor and the needy; save [them] from the hands of [the] wicked.
5 They did not know and they do not understand [that] they will walk in darkness; all the foundations of the earth will totter.
6 I said, "You are angelic creatures, and all of you are angels of the Most High."
7 Indeed, as man, you will die, and as one of the princes, you will fall.
Ellen Brown
Well-Known Member
I'm not sure, but it seems like there could be a million different interpretations of specific scripture and other writings as well. Why do you assume that you have the right to "force" others to adopt your view?
Neuropteron
Active Member
......
Among the Hebrews words that are translated God Is "El" meaning "mighty one or strong one" It is used in reference to JHVH and other Gods in the Bible.
At Isaiah 9:6 Jesus Christ is prophetically calle "El-Gibbor, mighty God" not "El-Shaddai, almighty God" but a God nonetheless.
The plural form is "E-lim" is used when referring to other Gods such as Ex 15:11.
"El lohim" is from a root word meaning "be strong".
The Greek term for El and Elo-him is "the-os".
...there are may gods [the-os] (1 Cor 8:5)
There are many other scriptures showing that "God" is a title and that many are called God.
Even you pointed out that there is a (fictional) God called "Thor".
That is why the Bible distinguishes the creator with his personal name JHVH, some pronounce it Jahve or Jehovah.
Ps 83:18 May people know that you, whose name is JHVH, You alone are the most high over all the earth.
cheers
Desert Snake
Veteran Member
The name and word, God, in the Bible, is contextual, to it's own use. The reason why you would even know, that 'another god', was being referred to, is because the text tells you that. In other words, without a descriptor, ex. The God Thor, so forth, you would have no idea, which 'god', it was referring to.
If one believes, that God, isn't the name, or one of the names, used without descriptor, of their 'g-d', or entity, they can't use the name, or word, God, to, for example,
• say that Jesus, isn't God [no descriptor, wrong by their own methodology
• Use God, as a name, for YHWH, or whatever their entity is, and say that the name can only refer to YHWH, or their entity, specifically [no descriptor, wrong by their own methodology
•
Hence, when one uses God as a name, without descriptor, it means that God, is actually one of the names, of their 'god'. This follows the usage, of the name, and word, God.
\\gothic \english usage of the name, God, which correlates to the name and word, usage, for the Biblical God.
Now, does this denote, an inherent specificity: in the Biblical usage, it does.
Does this mean that, everyone, is going to consider, other names, for the Biblical God, as specifically implied: no, it doesn't. Because the 'Bible', the contextual source, of the name, and word, God, 'god', does not always specify, an correlation, to another name, or word, or interpretation, religiously, of such, in another language.
If one believes, that God, isn't the name, or one of the names, used without descriptor, of their 'g-d', or entity, they can't use the name, or word, God, to, for example,
• say that Jesus, isn't God [no descriptor, wrong by their own methodology
• Use God, as a name, for YHWH, or whatever their entity is, and say that the name can only refer to YHWH, or their entity, specifically [no descriptor, wrong by their own methodology
•
Hence, when one uses God as a name, without descriptor, it means that God, is actually one of the names, of their 'god'. This follows the usage, of the name, and word, God.
\\gothic \english usage of the name, God, which correlates to the name and word, usage, for the Biblical God.
Now, does this denote, an inherent specificity: in the Biblical usage, it does.
Does this mean that, everyone, is going to consider, other names, for the Biblical God, as specifically implied: no, it doesn't. Because the 'Bible', the contextual source, of the name, and word, God, 'god', does not always specify, an correlation, to another name, or word, or interpretation, religiously, of such, in another language.
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there could be. i have read that holy books are like Rorschach tests.
its interesting that some believe gods can become people but people can't become gods.
5 For God doth know that in the day you eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and you shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.
and then
22 And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
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jesus isn't omnipresent. thus isaiah 9:6 isn't speaking of a temporal thing. the child was born to isaiah present tense and not future tense.
unto us "will" a child be born would be a prophecy of future tense.
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Etritonakin
Well-Known Member
He was speaking of something written in a different time.
The important part is that he did call them gods -and the scripture cannot be broken.
None will ever be God, the Father -but Christ -who was the Word who created all things -and was both with God and was God -is called "the firstborn of many brethren"
The Father and Christ will always be in authority over us, but we will be made like Christ in other ways.
Our "vile" bodies will be changed to be "like unto his glorious body, according to the working thereof he is able to subdue all things unto himself". "We will see him as he is, and we will be like him".
Those humans made immortal at the return of Christ will reign with Christ a thousand years on Earth as kings and priests -so they will be given authority over others (to serve them and bless them) -and those humans made immortal will also judge the affairs of the angels.
Eventually, the entire creation will be "liberated from its bondage to decay" by the children of God -who will eventually inhabit the universe -"the heavens" which were "formed to be inhabited".
So... We will never be equal to God in power, authority, etc. -but we will be made godlike.
Desert Snake
Veteran Member
Where? If Jesus quoting scripture, then it probably means, that He is calling Himself, God, not them. Jesus rebukes these people in no uncertain language, is Jesus saying that the word or name gods, should be be used for
Luke 6:2
Luke 11:39
Luke 11:44
Matthew 12:24
Matthew 12:30
Matthew 12:34
Matthew 12:39
The problem with that, is noted by the context.
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Etritonakin
Well-Known Member
Psa_82:6 I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.
(is not negated by the fact that it is also written that they will fall like men)
Joh_10:34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?
Is it not written in your law (referring to the older books), I said, Ye are gods?
Rom 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
Rom 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Rom 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
Christ said it was written in their law that men were referred to as gods BY GOD (and also children of God) in the context of the psalm (the word of God through David) -and asked why they then accused him of blasphemy because he said was the son of God.
Joh 10:33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.
Joh 10:34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?
Joh 10:35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;
Joh 10:36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?
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Desert Snake
Veteran Member
So, you aren't really disagreeing with the premise. There is inherent hypocrisy, here, and, no reason to assume these Pharisees didn't know their own texts.
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What happens, though, is the correlation, between Psalms 82, and associated verses, if there. Psalms 82 and associated verses, does not mean that men, are being called gods. It is God, judging amongst the angels, or the gods of the nations, etc.
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The Anointed
Well-Known Member
Hebrew 5: 7-10; “In his life on earth Jesus made his prayers and requests with loud cries and tears to God who could save him from death. Because he was humble and devoted, God heard him. But even though he was 'A' son of God, (Not God’s Son, or THE son of God, but A son of God, check it out in the Appendix of Strong’s Concordance, or The King James, Amplified, or The Revised Standard translations. All Israelites are sons of God according to God’s word, see Psalms 82: 6; ‘You are gods,’ I said; ‘all of you are sons of the Most High.’)
Desert Snake
Veteran Member
Hope not, since Psalms 82 is God, talking to angels, not men.
The Anointed
Well-Known Member
And what make you think that God was talking to angels? Remembering Luke 20: 34-36; "Jesus replied, "The people of this age marry and are given in marriage. But those who are considered worthy of taking part in the age to come and in the resurrection from the dead will neither marry nor be given in marriage, and they can no longer die; for they are like the angels. They are God's children, since they are children of the resurrection.
Desert Snake
Veteran Member
Yes, one can go all sorts of places, with this, but what was Jesus really saying. He wasn't talking to His followers.
The Anointed
Well-Known Member
Jesus was talking to some Sadducees who rejected the teaching of the resurrection, but let me go back to my original statement: Hebrew 5: 7-10; “In his life on earth Jesus made his prayers and requests with loud cries and tears to God who could save him from death. Because he was humble and devoted, God heard him. But even though he was 'A' son of God, (Not God’s Son, or THE son of God, but A son of God, check it out in the Appendix of Strong’s Concordance, or The King James, Amplified, or The Revised Standard translations. All Israelites are sons of God according to God’s word, see Psalms 82: 6; ‘You are gods,’ I said; ‘all of you are sons of the Most High.’)
Hosea 11:1; The Lord says, "When Israel was a child I loved him and called him out of Egypt as my son."
The man Jesus was an Israelite and like all Israelites he was (A) son of God.