What kind of god would punish people simply for not believing?

[javajo]

Um where did Jesus state in his own words that he was dying for anyone's sins? You can't use Paul, I said Jesus. Good luck...

He did not say he was dying for anyone's sins, he did say he was going to die and rise the third day in fulfilment of scripture. That scripture said he would bare the sin of many.

From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day. Mathew 16:21
And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behooved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day: Luke 24:46


That is OT scripture like in Isaiah 53 for one:

5But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities...
6... and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.
8...for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.
10...when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin,...
11...by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.
12...because he hath poured out his soul unto death:... and he bare the sin of many...

He also said that if he be lifted up (which most agree on the cross) he would draw all men to him, and as moses lifted up the serpent (and the people looked to it and were saved) so would he be lifted up. Thing is, I believe the WHOLE Bible, the WHOLE council of God and it says Jesus bought us with his blood and that's good enough for me. Look, I trust him, I plan on going to Heaven with him. If others don't believe, that's fine with me, but as for me, brother, I believe!

Mark 15:27-28
And with him they crucify two thieves; the one on his right hand, and the other on his left. And the scripture was fulfilled, which saith, And he was numbered with the transgressors.
Isaiah 53:12...because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many,

Look at the two verses above in red. You see how the scripture was fulfilled, and, not only was he numbered with the transgressors, he bare the sin of many. It was clear to those who wrote the Bible as it is clear to me and to many Christians throughout the ages, Christ paid for our sins. Praise the Lord!

 

[opuntia]

I don't think there is any punishment, just withholding of blessings. You are free to believe what you will. But under this God we read about in the Bible, He requires your obedience if you wish to be a believer and in such display of belief He will reward you accordingly. If you don't believe you receive nothing but silence.

 

[javajo]

I don't think there is any punishment, just withholding of blessings. You are free to believe what you will. But under this God we read about in the Bible, He requires your obedience if you wish to be a believer and in such display of belief He will reward you accordingly. If you don't believe you receive nothing but silence.

Well, salvation is a free gift paid for by Christ. Its totally free to those who have placed their faith in him, and although there are rewards and lack thereof, he asks nothing in return, as in Romans 4:
When a man works, his pay is not considered a gift. It is owed to him. But things are different with God. He makes evil people right with himself. If people trust in him, their faith is accepted even though they do not work. Their faith makes them right with God. God makes those people right with himself. But they don't have to do anything in return.

 

[Rainbow Mage]

Ok Javajo, so basically all you can do is quote other people in a way that you think points to Jesus dying for sins?

 

[javajo]

Ok Javajo, so basically all you can do is quote other people in a way that you think points to Jesus dying for sins?

What is love? It is not that we loved God. It is that he loved us and sent his Son to give his life to pay for our sins. 1 John 4:10

 

[Mister Emu]

Then the point is moot, I suppose!

My apologies, but I've just never been able to find a comparison that did not actually cause further confusion on the issue...

All right, I'll bite: pray tell, what then is supposed to be the basis of putting one's entire trust for salvation etc. (which presupposes that one *needs* salvation in the Christian sense, which I also would need very persuasive evidence to believe) into the hands of this god of yours

Well, I've had experiences which compel me to believe in the God of the Bible...

I have no problem conceding that point, however, what you said originally was "Third error: they were not created to act in such ways"; which is categorically defining my viewpoint as factually incorrect, and yours as the correction thereof. So it is not a question of 'your beliefs' with this phraseology!

Sometimes we get lost in the quotes. That was actually in the exchange about the Son and Father having complete identification with each other.

Here I will apologize for not recognizing any room in your previous statement for elucidation, or any intent in you to provide further clarification; my crystal ball's been on the fritz, and we don't have that telepathy thing down yet, I'm afraid

I thought you would have by now... you really need to step up here

In retrospect, I can understand how my previous statement would have lead to the conclusions it did, and that my reasoning for replacing non-believer with wicked may not have been readily apparent.

It is, however, extremely unstable to demand that a creation serve and love you in a particular way, make that way obscure and difficult, and then shove said creation into an everlasting furnace of torment because it did not, in fact, find itself able to love you.

As I said before, I don't think God throws people into a furnace of everlasting torment...

 

[City_Hunter]

But I know I am a sinner and Jesus paid for my sins, and that's a good deal to me.

Interesting how you think that someone taking your place absolves you of all personal responsibility for your alleged sins.

 

[javajo]

Interesting how you think that someone taking your place absolves you of all personal responsibility for your alleged sins.

I did not say that. As far as the common salvation goes, yes he paid for my sins. As far as earthly and heavenly consequences for sins, we reap what we sow. Knowing we are bought with a price makes us even more careful because it all matters. Even personal sins, like if you smoke too much its gonna catch up to you. And some believers will be saved yet suffer loss, be saved 'yet as by fire', and some will have great reward. So, its very important how we live.

 

[Wotan]

"Knowing we are bought with a price makes us even more careful because it all matters."

Interesting - and revealing - wording.

I wonder how much self-respect goes for nowadays. Not much apparently.

 

[Muffled]

Curious? What kind of reason is that?

It appears reasonable to me.

God tells you not to murder. You don't believe Him and murder anyway so you have to be punished for your transgression.

God realizes that people are not able to keep His laws even though they believe in them, so he pardons them simply because they believe in His laws and wish to keep them and then provides help in keeping them fo those willing to believe they need help.

I suppose if the pre-suppositon is that a peson doesn't believe in God at all that the person would automatically be good. This is not what God says is the case and history bears this out.

Now the question arises whether God is treating the unbeliever on an equitable basis with the believer.

The question then is whether the unbeliever believes in doing good but just doesn't know what that is. The disbelief in what God says is good then becomes a matter of question whether the person seeking good can actually find it in God and it appears to me that the person should abe able to find it in God.

Then the question arises whether God is rejected because the person does not really want good in the first place.

The last question is based on the offer of God to absolve all transgressions if the person is willing to seek help to be good. Would it then be reasonable to assume that a person who rejects such an offer has no desire to be good?

 

[Misty]

It appears reasonable to me.

God tells you not to murder. You don't believe Him and murder anyway so you have to be punished for your transgression.

God realizes that people are not able to keep His laws even though they believe in them, so he pardons them simply because they believe in His laws and wish to keep them and then provides help in keeping them fo those willing to believe they need help.

I suppose if the pre-suppositon is that a peson doesn't believe in God at all that the person would automatically be good. This is not what God says is the case and history bears this out.

Now the question arises whether God is treating the unbeliever on an equitable basis with the believer.

The question then is whether the unbeliever believes in doing good but just doesn't know what that is. The disbelief in what God says is good then becomes a matter of question whether the person seeking good can actually find it in God and it appears to me that the person should abe able to find it in God.

Then the question arises whether God is rejected because the person does not really want good in the first place.

The last question is based on the offer of God to absolve all transgressions if the person is willing to seek help to be good. Would it then be reasonable to assume that a person who rejects such an offer has no desire to be good?

If you are looking for good don't look at god who is altogether BAD, imo!

 

[javajo]

God is good all the time, all the time God is good to me.

 

[Misty]

God is good all the time, all the time God is good to me.

Have you actually read the bible? How can you describe the deity portrayed therein as good?

 

[Autodidact]

The last verse of Ezekiel 18 may answer the main question of the thread:

For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord GOD: wherefore turn yourselves, and live ye.

God has NO PLEASURE in the death of the wicked. The NT says the same thing:

The Lord...is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. 2 Peter 3:9

Oh well I'm sure they don't mind dying then, as long as God isn't actually enjoying it.

 

[McBell]

What kind of god would punish people simply for not believing?

hmmm...
A Vain and Jealous one?

Exodus 20:5
... for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God...​

 

[Skwim]

hmmm...
A Vain and Jealous one?

Exodus 20:5
... for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God...​

Hey, the guy created evil. I would expect nothing less.

 

[City_Hunter]

It appears reasonable to me.

God tells you not to murder. You don't believe Him and murder anyway so you have to be punished for your transgression.

The implication here is that non belief means you are more likely to murder simply because you don't have god watching over you. Nonsense. You need only look at 9/11 to see exactly what happens, when people think they have god on their side. Or the pedophile priests in the Catholic Church that were then protected by the pope himself.

This is what happens when you think you have god on your side.

God realizes that people are not able to keep His laws even though they believe in them, so he pardons them simply because they believe in His laws and wish to keep them and then provides help in keeping them fo those willing to believe they need help.

You're contradicting yourself. In the previous quotation you implied that non believers would murder because they don't believe. You then make the admission that believers break the law anyway even if they do believe.

If that is how your god operates then he is not only stupid, but his law means nothing. He pardons people for breaking his laws, even though they are trying to keep his laws. Wtf have you been smoking? Can you imagine what would happen if our legal system operated like that? Noone would ever be imprisoned. If you can't honestly see a problem with what you just said, then I suggest you stop drinking the cool aid.

 

[Muffled]

The implication here is that non belief means you are more likely to murder simply because you don't have god watching over you. Nonsense. You need only look at 9/11 to see exactly what happens, when people think they have god on their side. Or the pedophile priests in the Catholic Church that were then protected by the pope himself.

This is what happens when you think you have god on your side.

You're contradicting yourself. In the previous quotation you implied that non believers would murder because they don't believe. You then make the admission that believers break the law anyway even if they do believe.

If that is how your god operates then he is not only stupid, but his law means nothing. He pardons people for breaking his laws, even though they are trying to keep his laws. Wtf have you been smoking? Can you imagine what would happen if our legal system operated like that? Noone would ever be imprisoned. If you can't honestly see a problem with what you just said, then I suggest you stop drinking the cool aid.

Yes. If a person doesn't believe in murder, he is less likely to murder. A person who believes in murder is more likely to. Is that so dificult for you to understand?

Again that only promotes the concept that belief makes a difference. If a person holds a false religious concept, that only emphasizes how imprtant it is to have a true religious concept.

I never contradict myself. The truth, that believing one should not murder makes murder less likley, does not mean that it eliminates a person's desire to murder. When that person is struggling with his conscience that says he shouldn't murder, he needs help to overcome the desire. Some are strong enough sometimes to overcome on their own; some are not and everyone fails to keep the law sometime in their life.

On the contrary. Our legal system sucks. It does not correct a person's behavior and sometimes makes it worse. There is a reason the rescivitism rate is high. Jail doesn't change a person's beliefs. The general attitude I found when doing prison ministry was that anyone who paid attention to God's laws or any laws for that matter was a fool. It would be nice if you could read a person's heart as God can, I would be more than willing to pardon and release a prisoner who had a change of heart and wanted to keep the law. The problem is that most prisoners will go before a parole board and tell them what they want to hear without any good intentions.

 

[bybee]

The lust for power in the name of one's god is the most harmful activity in recorded history. God has granted to humankind freewill. But humankind will not honor that right .

 

[Orias]

The lust for power in the name of one's god is the most harmful activity in recorded history. God has granted to humankind freewill. But humankind will not honor that right .

Ill spoken words.


It is man's Will that allows such beings to exist.