What makes a Shudra?

[spyrichuwel]

Has there ever been any text or work that delineates what defines a Shudra?

Are all Shudras morally lacking?

Are Shudras people that don't protect a suffering person? "apathetic masses" ?

I watched some comedy shows on TV and I thought to myself "wow this comedy is so pungent and classless, wheres even the humour in this? it is so unrefined, the emotions and energy seem tamasaic" I felt mentally painful after watching it

Does someone become a Shudra just because of his profession?

I want to be intensely spiritual, I think thats the easiest way to not be a Shudra, if I kept pushing myself spiritually perhaps even if I was born as a Shudra my nature might cease to be that of a Shudra

 

[spyrichuwel]

Were Duryodhana and company who were full of hatred and envy towards the Pandavas and who cheated really true Kshatriyas?

 

[sayak83]

Has there ever been any text or work that delineates what defines a Shudra?

Are all Shudras morally lacking?

Are Shudras people that don't protect a suffering person? "apathetic masses" ?

I watched some comedy shows on TV and I thought to myself "wow this comedy is so pungent and classless, wheres even the humour in this? it is so unrefined, the emotions and energy seem tamasaic" I felt mentally painful after watching it

Does someone become a Shudra just because of his profession?

I want to be intensely spiritual, I think thats the easiest way to not be a Shudra, if I kept pushing myself spiritually perhaps even if I was born as a Shudra my nature might cease to be that of a Shudra

In ancient India shudras were considered to be people who were unlearned and involved in menial jobs. Basically the lower class or servants. In the modern period, Hindu reformers and saints no longer think these class distinctions to be relevant. Unfortunately traditions die hard and discrimination against shudras still exist. Hopefully it will meet a swift end.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Does someone become a Shudra just because of his profession?

That was the earliest definition - one who works for a salary. Later it became hereditary.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Were Duryodhana and company who were full of hatred and envy towards the Pandavas and who cheated really true Kshatriyas?

Duryodhana was a nice person. He was not a demon as has been made out by some, only that his fate was against him. Even Pandavas were at fault many a times. He cared for his friends, In some regions of India Duryodhana has been deified.
"Scholars believe that like most other characters of the Mahabharata, the true picture is not black and white."
Duryodhana - Wikipedia
"Duryodhan temple" - Google Search

 

[Shrew]

Duryodhana was a nice person. He was not a demon as has been made out by some, only that his fate was against him. He cared for his friends, In some regions of India Duryodhana has been deified.
Duryodhana - Wikipedia
"Duryodhan temple" - Google Search

That's interesting. Has not Ravana been deified in some eareas too?

 

[spyrichuwel]

In ancient India shudras were considered to be people who were unlearned and involved in menial jobs. Basically the lower class or servants. In the modern period, Hindu reformers and saints no longer think these class distinctions to be relevant. Unfortunately traditions die hard and discrimination against shudras still exist. Hopefully it will meet a swift end.

Indeed I think that clearly not all humans are the same. Different humans have different tendencies...

I think I could even divide non-Indian to different varnas if I could categorize them.

Indeed if all Indians were the same, we should be seeing religiousity on steroids, clearly that is not the case.

 

[spyrichuwel]

Duryodhana was a nice person. He was not a demon as has been made out by some, only that his fate was against him. Even Pandavas were at fault many a times. He cared for his friends, In some regions of India Duryodhana has been deified.
"Scholars believe that like most other characters of the Mahabharata, the true picture is not black and white."
Duryodhana - Wikipedia
"Duryodhan temple" - Google Search

LOL!

yeah he's so nice that him and his gang teamed up on Abhimanyu in the end because Abhimanyu was hacking and slashing his way through. Wow what a manly Kshatriya indeed!

one of the few redeeming things about Duryodhana was he did have the guts to fight Bhima one on one like a real man.

 

[sayak83]

Indeed I think that clearly not all humans are the same. Different humans have different tendencies...

I think I could even divide non-Indian to different varnas if I could categorize them.

Indeed if all Indians were the same, we should be seeing religiousity on steroids, clearly that is not the case.

Differences do exist between persons in terms of what skills and natural capacities they have. That however is no reason to say one class is inferior to others. If one defines shudras as people who enjoy service to others, then people who work in NGO-s, nurses, people who work in hospitality industry etc. would be shudras. It would be perfectly noble and honorable way of life.

 

[Aupmanyav]

That's interesting. Has not Ravana been deified in some eareas too?

Yeah, sure. Here : "Ravana temple" - Google Search

Ravana and Banasura are considered to be great asuras. They are also considered to be the greatest devotees of Lord Shiva. Similarly Prahlad and Bali were great asuras but greatest devotees of Lord Vishnu. Ravana is also considered a great scholar. His ten heads representing his mastery of four Vedas and six darshanas. A poem ascribed to him in praise of Lord Shiva (Shiva Tandava Stotra) is one of the most loved prayers among Hindus. In Hinduism, none is totally dark.

 

[Aupmanyav]

yeah he's so nice that him and his gang teamed up on Abhimanyu in the end because Abhimanyu was hacking and slashing his way through. Wow what a manly Kshatriya indeed!

one of the few redeeming things about Duryodhana was he did have the guts to fight Bhima one on one like a real man.

And Bheema on the contrary to laws of combat struck him in a place that was not permitted (in the groin). And of course, Yudhishthira, the most truthful person in Mahabharata, lied about Ashwatthama being dead. No one is pure white or pure black, not even Gods. They too err, at least in Hinduism.

.. If one defines shudras as people who enjoy service to others, then people who work in NGO-s, nurses, people who work in hospitality industry etc. would be shudras.

Many more than that. All the white-collar workers, when they work for a salary.

 

[Shantanu]

Has there ever been any text or work that delineates what defines a Shudra?

Are all Shudras morally lacking?

Are Shudras people that don't protect a suffering person? "apathetic masses" ?

I watched some comedy shows on TV and I thought to myself "wow this comedy is so pungent and classless, wheres even the humour in this? it is so unrefined, the emotions and energy seem tamasaic" I felt mentally painful after watching it

Does someone become a Shudra just because of his profession?

I want to be intensely spiritual, I think thats the easiest way to not be a Shudra, if I kept pushing myself spiritually perhaps even if I was born as a Shudra my nature might cease to be that of a Shudra

Shudra is one of the four varnas in the Vedic system of social stratification the bottom rung although a fifth varna is the worst of human characteristics as untouchables of dalits; read this: The varna system of social organisation of the Hindus.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Shudra is one of the four varnas in the Vedic system of social stratification the bottom rung although a fifth varna is the worst of human characteristics as untouchables of dalits; read this:

Dalit is not the correct word for the fifth varna. The word Dalit is coined either by missionaries who want conversions or politicians who want to get votes by acting as their saviors. The correct nomenclature for the fifth varna is 'Chandala', those who have been ex-communicated from the Hindu society because of their actions which were prohibited and considered most despicable.

 

[Mowgli]

Shudra is a later category added to the original three fold divison of purely vedic tribes..this is the exact three fold division "quoted" by Plato in his Republic..later when People under Asura Kingdoms, with an "inappropriate" culture, came to mix with Vedic people, they made them cultural trainees by serving the three "vedic" castes they should imbibe the "Aryan" culture n Values..that;s why a Shudra is Veda Baahya..or an outsider to Veda..All this happened well before the birth of Purusha Sukta, may be betwen 10,500 BC to 9,000 BC..Or, alternatively, we may think the emergence of capitalism and enterpreneurship among Vedic "Commoners"(Vaishya) led to the creation of another new class of salaried workers who were to be recruited from subjugated people of Asura Kingdoms..
Later some Shudra clans raised to the status of "Shudra-Arya" is a proof that the origin of Shudraness is in Anaaryas merging with an Aryan, i.e. Noble soceity..When later philosophies tried to explain varna system in terms of trigunas (Saankhya Kaarika) they defined afresh that Shudra ia combination of Tamas as predominant guna and Rajas as second dominant guna..this started painting shudra in negative..Shudra is supposed to attain higher Varna only in a later life, that too subjected to the satisfactory performance of his present life duties a s a Shudra..
Sri krishna says "these four fold varna system is created by Me which when violated, as done by Great Emperor Maha Bali, invites My interference.." this means Saankya explanation of Guna Based Divison of people is trueto facilitate and make easy "natural Selection"..

 

[Aupmanyav]

The four-fold division of the society exists even in Zoroastrianism:
asronih (the priesthood),
(r)atheshtarih (soldiers and civil servants),
vastaryoshih (farmers and herdsmen),
hutokshih (artisans and laborers).
Fire temple - Wikipedia

In Kahmiri, a lowly worker was addressed as 'huto'.

 

[Sharmaji]

Dalit is not the correct word for the fifth varna. The word Dalit is coined either by missionaries who want conversions or politicians who want to get votes by acting as their saviors. The correct nomenclature for the fifth varna is 'Chandala', those who have been ex-communicated from the Hindu society because of their actions which were prohibited and considered most despicable.

I’m more than happy to see this explanation. I myself had no idea of it and I’m more than grateful for your input.

 

[Aupmanyav]

You are welcome Sharmaji.

 

[DeviChaaya]

If I was asked to take a caste I would take shudra. I'm mleccha as it is and less then shudra as a result but I also work as a nurse. Nursing, caring for people, it is a service. Yes, I'm paid for it, but that's how the world works at the moment. It has always been a source of confusion to me that shudras are looked down on. They should be lauded, they do what keeps society functioning. If we did not have the Doms, orthodox Hindus would have to burn the bodies themselves and thus incur ritual impurity. What would they do is suddenly the Doms refused to do their inherited jobs?

 

[sayak83]

If I was asked to take a caste I would take shudra. I'm mleccha as it is and less then shudra as a result but I also work as a nurse. Nursing, caring for people, it is a service. Yes, I'm paid for it, but that's how the world works at the moment. It has always been a source of confusion to me that shudras are looked down on. They should be lauded, they do what keeps society functioning. If we did not have the Doms, orthodox Hindus would have to burn the bodies themselves and thus incur ritual impurity. What would they do is suddenly the Doms refused to do their inherited jobs?

Actually shudras were usually the poorer manual laborers who lacked property and wealth and hence could not pay taxes and had little say in the affairs of the city. Most people in every society are vaishyas, meaning "citizenry" or propertied class. If you have bank accounts and taxable assets, you can't be a sudra, regardless of what you do.

 

[Aupmanyav]

If we did not have the Doms, orthodox Hindus would have to burn the bodies themselves and thus incur ritual impurity. What would they do is suddenly the Doms refused to do their inherited jobs?

Doms, IMHO, are Chandalas (as the Dom Raja in Varanasi is known as). Shudras are not doms. They are very much a part of the Hindu society as also a part of 'Purusha's body'.

ब्राह्मणो.अस्य मुखमासीद बाहू राजन्यः कृतः l
ऊरूतदस्य यद् वैश्यः पद्भ्यां शूद्रो अजायत ll
brāhmaṇo.asya mukhamāsīda bāhū rājanyaḥ kṛtaḥ l
ūrūtadasya yad vaiśyaḥ padbhyāṃ śūdro ajāyata ll
The Brahman was his mouth, of both his arms was the Rājanya made.
His thighs became the Vaiśya, from his feet the Śūdra was produced.
Rig Veda: Rig-Veda, Book 10: HYMN XC. Puruṣa.

If you have bank accounts and taxable assets, you can't be a sudra, regardless of what you do.

No Sayak, what one does is important. The four-fold division of the society was based on what they did, irrespective of their financial situation. The Dom Raja in Varanasi may be stinking rich, but that does not make a difference to his being a Chandala (for something real bad that his ancestor must have done). Similarly brahmins, kshatriyas or vaishyas may be rich or poor, that will not make any difference.