What Makes Jesus The Son Of God.The Son Of God Theory.

[Deut 13:1]

Jewscout, What is the messianic roadmap that is oulined in the Jewish Talmud? Whats does it explicitly state about the Messiah? Compared that with the birth, ministry, death and resurrection of Jesus. Are there similarities? Nobody is saying that you did not have a clue, but I am asking you to be open and honest in your assessment. Who else in your opinion has even come close to meeting the blueprint?

Well, for starters...

Jews do not believe that Jesus was the moshiach. Assuming that he existed, and assuming that the Christian scriptures are accurate in describing him (both matters that are debatable), he simply did not fulfill the mission of the moshiach as it is described in the biblical passages cited above. Jesus did not do any of the things that the scriptures said the messiah would do. On the contrary, another Jew born about a century later came far closer to fulfilling the messianic ideal than Jesus did. His name was Shimeon ben Kosiba, known as Bar Kochba (son of a star), and he was a charismatic, brilliant, but brutal warlord. Rabbi Akiba, one of the greatest scholars in Jewish history, believed that Bar Kochba was the moshiach. Bar Kochba fought a war against the Roman Empire, catching the Tenth Legion by surprise and retaking Jerusalem. He resumed sacrifices at the site of the Temple and made plans to rebuild the Temple. He established a provisional government and began to issue coins in its name. This is what the Jewish people were looking for in a moshiach; Jesus clearly does not fit into this mold. Ultimately, however, the Roman Empire crushed his revolt and killed Bar Kochba. After his death, all acknowledged that he was not the moshiach.

There have been others as well who have come MUCH closer then jesus.

Also, have you ever even READ the Talmud? And I don't mean one tiny sentance or two. I mean actually read it, and studied it.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Jesus met all of the Messianic prophecies outlined in the Old Testament and Jewish Talmud. Do you know what the mathematical odds of that happening are?

When one is reverse engineering a prophesy the odds are pretty high. In retrospect, it's amazing that the gospel writers did such a sloppy and superficial job of it.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

It is my belief that Jesus WAS a mortal man fathered by Joseph of the House of David.

And your evidence for this would be what?

 

[Deut 13:1]

When one is reverse engineering a prophesy the odds are pretty high. In retrospect, it's amazing that the gospel writers did such a sloppy and superficial job of it.

Not to argue with you on this... but, what did the gospel writers do a sloppy job of?

 

[spacemonkey]

Actually, there is someone who got a closer then he did to fullfilling them. *Hint* Rabbi Akiva, one of the greatest Torah scholars, believed him to be Messiach. Can you name him?

Simon bar Kokhba

 

[spacemonkey]

And your evidence for this would be what?

I have no evidence, whch is why I said it was my belief. The reasons I belive this i gave in the original post in abridged form. The fact is, there is no EVIDENCE that Jesus was born of a virgin either, only a second hand account written by a person who was obviously biased.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Not to argue with you on this... but, what did the gospel writers do a sloppy job of?

Much of the New Testament reads like juvenile Midrash conflated with anti-Judaic polemic. The silly reference to Isaiah 7:14 is an example of the former, as is Matthews reference to Micah 5:2.

I suspect (and it is only a suspicion) that the Jerusalem Jesus tradition was based on some torah-observant Onais-like sect leader. Decades later an attempt was made to reframe this leader as a messiah despite the fact that he in no way resembled either of the dual-messianic figures anticipated during the closing days of the 2nd Temple Period.

 

[blueman]

Well, for starters...


There have been others as well who have come MUCH closer then jesus.

Also, have you ever even READ the Talmud? And I don't mean one tiny sentance or two. I mean actually read it, and studied it.

I do understand that many Jews do not believe that Jesus was the Messiah, because many believed that the Messiah would be one to overthrow Roman rule, which obviously was not part of Jesus' agenda. I am interested in what the Jewish prophets referenced in the Talmud said about the Messiah. Could you shed some light on that.

 

[blueman]

Much of the New Testament reads like juvenile Midrash conflated with anti-Judaic polemic. The silly reference to Isaiah 7:14 is an example of the former, as is Matthews reference to Micah 5:2.

I suspect (and it is only a suspicion) that the Jerusalem Jesus tradition was based on some torah-observant Onais-like sect leader. Decades later an attempt was made to reframe this leader as a messiah despite the fact that he in no way resembled either of the dual-messianic figures anticipated during the closing days of the 2nd Temple Period.

That's bogus. Those Old Testament prohecies were written some 700 years prior to the birth of Chist. No one could have scripted the outcome with such precision as compared to the Old Testament prophecies. We will agree to disagree on this on Deut, but that's nothing new.

 

[Popeyesays]

for some reason i don't think the Rambam would agree with you on that one.

but then what the hell does he know

The issue is literal interpretation versus metaphoric interpretation of those prophecies.

It's the same thing that prevents Christians from recognizing Muhammed, or muslims (who interpret the term "Seal of the Prophets" to mean LAST of all Prophets), from recognizing Baha`u'llah.

I am comfortable with anyone denying the truth of the next prophet if they have arrived at the decision on their own, to depend upon the traditions of the previous dispensations or abrogate the decision to a clergy person MAY (in my interpretation) have made an error.

Regards,
Scott

 

[Deut 13:1]

Much of the New Testament reads like juvenile Midrash conflated with anti-Judaic polemic. The silly reference to Isaiah 7:14 is an example of the former, as is Matthews reference to Micah 5:2.

I suspect (and it is only a suspicion) that the Jerusalem Jesus tradition was based on some torah-observant Onais-like sect leader. Decades later an attempt was made to reframe this leader as a messiah despite the fact that he in no way resembled either of the dual-messianic figures anticipated during the closing days of the 2nd Temple Period.

Thank you, I'd give you frubals, but I have to pass more around before I do. I'm not too familiar with the NT.

 

[Deut 13:1]

I do understand that many Jews do not believe that Jesus was the Messiah, because many believed that the Messiah would be one to overthrow Roman rule, which obviously was not part of Jesus' agenda. I am interested in what the Jewish prophets referenced in the Talmud said about the Messiah. Could you shed some light on that.

Jewscout, What is the messianic roadmap that is oulined in the Jewish Talmud? Whats does it explicitly state about the Messiah? Compared that with the birth, ministry, death and resurrection of Jesus. Are there similarities? Nobody is saying that you did not have a clue, but I am asking you to be open and honest in your assessment. Who else in your opinion has even come close to meeting the blueprint?

You made the assertion that it's in the Talmud, I'm asking you where. This is of course assuming that you've even opened the Talmud before, which I, and I'm pretty sure but not positive that Jewscout and Jayhawker would agree with me, have doubts about.

So if you think the Talmud discusses the birth-ministry-death-ressurection of jesus, please back up your outragous claims. Don't ask me to do it for you, so you can then turn around and argue with jewscout about the meaning of it. Let's see you back up your preposterous claims and not shift the burdon of your claims for me to first: 1)substantiate 2) then prove wrong.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

That's bogus. Those Old Testament prohecies were written some 700 years prior to the birth of Chist. No one could have scripted the outcome with such precision as compared to the Old Testament prophecies.

Think it through, and then try again ...

 

[Deut 13:1]

That's bogus. Those Old Testament prohecies were written some 700 years prior to the birth of Chist. No one could have scripted the outcome with such precision as compared to the Old Testament prophecies. We will agree to disagree on this on Deut, but that's nothing new.

Considering you believe that Isaiah 7:14 to be a Messianic prophecy, I think I'll have to agree with Jayhawker (sort of) on this. To think that Isaiah was telling King Ahaz not to fear his enemies because in 700 years, this guy named Jesus was going to come and be a sign for King Ahaz absolutely blows my mind.

 

[joeboonda]

Hi all, I have been taught that the following verses in Isaiah refer to the Messiah, or Jesus. Can some of you tell me your ideas on this?

Isaiah 52:13-53:12 Behold, my servant shall deal prudently, he shall be exalted and extolled, and be very high. As many were astonished at thee; his visage was so marred more than any man, and his form more than the sons of men; So shall he sprinkle many nations; the kings shall shut their mouths at him; for that which had not been told them shall they see; and that which they had not heard shall they consider. Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the Lord revealed? For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground; he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him. He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief; and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not. Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows; yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted. But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities; the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed. All we like sheep have gone astray, we have turned every one to his own way; and the Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all. He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth; he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth. He was taken from prison and from judgment; and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living; for the transgression of my people was he stricken. And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth. Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise him; he hath put him to grief; when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in his hand. He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied; by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities. Therefore will I divede him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death; and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

..., I think I'll have to agree with Jayhawker (sort of) on this.

I am honoured by your unreservedly tepid support.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Hi all, I have been taught that the following verses in Isaiah refer to the Messiah, or Jesus. Can some of you tell me your ideas on this?

Sure. It's a worthless claim.

 

[blueman]

Considering you believe that Isaiah 7:14 to be a Messianic prophecy, I think I'll have to agree with Jayhawker (sort of) on this. To think that Isaiah was telling King Ahaz not to fear his enemies because in 700 years, this guy named Jesus was going to come and be a sign for King Ahaz absolutely blows my mind.

That's just one that refers to the Messiah, but you might also want to reference the 53rd chapter of Isaiah as well.

 

[Deut 13:1]

Hi all, I have been taught that the following verses in Isaiah refer to the Messiah, or Jesus. Can some of you tell me your ideas on this?

Isaiah 52:13-53:12 Behold, my servant shall deal prudently, he shall be exalted and extolled, and be very high. As many were astonished at thee; his visage was so marred more than any man, and his form more than the sons of men; So shall he sprinkle many nations; the kings shall shut their mouths at him; for that which had not been told them shall they see; and that which they had not heard shall they consider. Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the Lord revealed? For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground; he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him. He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief; and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not. Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows; yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted. But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities; the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed. All we like sheep have gone astray, we have turned every one to his own way; and the Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all. He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth; he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth. He was taken from prison and from judgment; and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living; for the transgression of my people was he stricken. And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth. Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise him; he hath put him to grief; when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in his hand. He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied; by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities. Therefore will I divede him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death; and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

This is the third or fourth of four servant songs, in the earlier songs it says out explicitly that the servant is Israel. (At least that is what I heard, I have not yet had the opportunity to look it up).

There is one other gramatical issue as to why it is not talking about a single person but rather a group of people

מֵעֹצֶר וּמִמִּשְׁפָּט לֻקָּח, וְאֶת-דּוֹרוֹ מִי יְשׂוֹחֵחַ: כִּי נִגְזַר מֵאֶרֶץ חַיִּים, מִפֶּשַׁע עַמִּי נֶגַע לָמוֹ.

8. From imprisonment and from judgment he is taken, and his generation who shall tell? For he was cut off from the land of the living; because of the transgression of my people, a plague befell them.

At the end of that line is the world Lamo, which means them, the word Lo means him. So it can't be talking about a single person.

To show that the Jews were called Avdi, my servant, look at Isaiah 49:3, 45:4, 44:1, 2:21, 41:8

Also, if you would be so kind as to look at the next verse, it says is uses the word
וַיִּתֵּן אֶת-רְשָׁעִים קִבְרוֹ, וְאֶת-עָשִׁיר בְּמֹתָיו

Notice the word at the end,B'Motav, says "with his deaths" i.e. multiple deaths as apposed to Be'Moto, "with his death"...

Also if you follow the whole narative, look at 52:14 it is refering to the kings, the gentile kings. Then the story is given from their perspective, they are the we and the our, giving their side of it.

Hebrew is different from English because you can refer to a group of people as one unit in the singular.

 

[Deut 13:1]

That's just one that refers to the Messiah, but you might also want to reference the 53rd chapter of Isaiah as well.

Again, Why would Isaiah tell KING AHAZ that KING AHAZ would see this sign given from the L-rd, a young woman (ALMAH NOT BETULAH) would concieve. Do you think the L-rd lied to King Ahaz? You know, King Ahaz didn't live 700+ years.

I also just addressed Isaiah 53, another one of the mistranslations.