What Makes People Vote Republican?

[Joe_Stocks]

Hi Smoke,

Not Americans like Barbara Wagner. That is a fact.

So, you accept as a fact that Americans have greater access to life-saving and sustaining drugs than those in countries with socialized healthcare?

 

[Sunstone]

Hi Smoke,



So, you accept as a fact that Americans have greater access to life-saving and sustaining drugs than those in countries with socialized healthcare?

In theory, maybe. But in practice, someone would need to be able to afford the price of those drugs for them to have honest access to them. Today, hundreds of thousands of people each year are declaring bankruptcy because of medical costs. I doubt they have access to the drugs you reference -- or to any drugs. On the other hand, a single payer system would be advantageous in allowing them access to at least some life-saving and sustaining drugs.

 

[Smoke]

So, you accept as a fact that Americans have greater access to life-saving and sustaining drugs than those in countries with socialized healthcare?

I see you've dropped poor Barbara. What happened to your Christian compassion for her plight?

The answer is No. The wealthy of any nation have greater access than the poor of any nation. The wealthy of Europe, Liberia and Swaziland have access to everything that the wealthy of the U.S. have.

The fact -- the plain, unavoidable fact -- is that as a nation we pay more than twice as much for health care as Europeans pay, and we have worse health outcomes. Whatever the flaws of European systems, they're still better than our system, except for a privileged few, and those privileged few would still have their advantages under any system.

But I'm getting weary of your dishonest ideology-mongering. It sickens me the way you try to exploit Barbara Wagner when you quite obviously don't give a damn about people like Barbara Wagner, and the futility of arguing with you is apparent.

 

[Joe_Stocks]

Hi Sunstone,

In theory, maybe. But in practice, someone would need to be able to afford the price of those drugs for them to have honest access to them. Today, hundreds of thousands of people each year are declaring bankruptcy because of medical costs. I doubt they have access to the drugs you reference -- or to any drugs. On the other hand, a single payer system would be advantageous in allowing them access to at least some life-saving and sustaining drugs.

It's not in theory, it is the truth.

Cheaper Doesn't Mean Better. Ask a Canadian (diabetes depression anxiety cholesterol job) - Mombu the Medicine Forum

To save funds, Canadian health officials delay the introduction of new and more
expensive drugs. As a result it takes considerable time for new and more
expensive medications to make it into the medicine chests of Canadians. Some
never do. One hundred new drugs were launched in the United States from 1997
through 1999. Only 43 made it to market in Canada in that same period. Canadians
are still waiting for many of them.

And we can get into the private insurance plans that would cover the drugs that aren't even allowed in Canada.

You see, countries with socialized healthcare can't overturn the laws of economics so as their costs soar they don't allow new drugs that treat pain and diseases better than ever before to get to their citizens. And then you guys sermonize on how socialized healthcare is more compassionate than the free market. It is quite comical.

 

[Sunstone]

Hi Sunstone,



It's not in theory, it is the truth.

Cheaper Doesn't Mean Better. Ask a Canadian (diabetes depression anxiety cholesterol job) - Mombu the Medicine Forum

To save funds, Canadian health officials delay the introduction of new and more
expensive drugs. As a result it takes considerable time for new and more
expensive medications to make it into the medicine chests of Canadians. Some
never do. One hundred new drugs were launched in the United States from 1997
through 1999. Only 43 made it to market in Canada in that same period. Canadians
are still waiting for many of them.

And we can get into the private insurance plans that would cover the drugs that aren't even allowed in Canada.

You see, countries with socialized healthcare can't overturn the laws of economics so as their costs soar they don't allow new drugs that treat pain and diseases better than ever before to get to their citizens. And then you guys sermonize on how socialized healthcare is more compassionate than the free market. It is quite comical.

You missed the point, Joe. It doesn't do any good to have wonderful drugs lying around in the US if folks can't afford them. And the fact is, millions of folks cannot afford those wonder drugs you seem to think are so useful.

 

[Joe_Stocks]

Hi Smoke,

I see you've dropped poor Barbara. What happened to your Christian compassion for her plight?

The answer is No. The wealthy of any nation have greater access than the poor of any nation. The wealthy of Europe, Liberia and Swaziland have access to everything that the wealthy of the U.S. have.

The fact -- the plain, unavoidable fact -- is that as a nation we pay more than twice as much for health care as Europeans pay, and we have worse health outcomes. Whatever the flaws of European systems, they're still better than our system, except for a privileged few, and those privileged few would still have their advantages under any system.

But I'm getting weary of your dishonest ideology-mongering. It sickens me the way you try to exploit Barbara Wagner when you quite obviously don't give a damn about people like Barbara Wagner, and the futility of arguing with you is apparent.

Barbara was failed by government-run healthcare. While her particular case may have not been salvaged in the free market, when you have government-run healthcare you have more Barbara Wagner's.

Cheaper Doesn't Mean Better. Ask a Canadian (diabetes depression anxiety cholesterol job) - Mombu the Medicine Forum

To save funds, Canadian health officials delay the introduction of new and more
expensive drugs. As a result it takes considerable time for new and more
expensive medications to make it into the medicine chests of Canadians. Some
never do. One hundred new drugs were launched in the United States from 1997
through 1999. Only 43 made it to market in Canada in that same period. Canadians
are still waiting for many of them.

 

[Joe_Stocks]

Hi Sunstone,

You missed the point, Joe. It doesn't do any good to have wonderful drugs lying around in the US if folks can't afford them. And the fact is, millions of folks cannot afford those wonder drugs you seem to think are so useful.

What gives you the impression that they are lying around?

 

[Sunstone]

Cheaper Doesn't Mean Better. Ask a Canadian (diabetes depression anxiety cholesterol job) - Mombu the Medicine Forum

To save funds, Canadian health officials delay the introduction of new and more
expensive drugs. As a result it takes considerable time for new and more
expensive medications to make it into the medicine chests of Canadians. Some
never do. One hundred new drugs were launched in the United States from 1997
through 1999. Only 43 made it to market in Canada in that same period. Canadians
are still waiting for many of them.

Sally Pipes, a Canadian citizen living in the United States, is president & CEO
of the Pacific Research Institute, a free-market think tank based in San
Francisco.

So she's got an axe to grind, eh.

 

[Sunstone]

Hi Sunstone,



What gives you the impression that they are lying around?

What gives you the impression that the expensive drugs you've been referring to are available to everyone in America, Joe?

 

[Joe_Stocks]

Hi Sunstone,

Sally Pipes, a Canadian citizen living in the United States, is president & CEO
of the Pacific Research Institute, a free-market think tank based in San
Francisco.

So she's got an axe to grind, eh.

Genetic fallacy.

What gives you the impression that the expensive drugs you've been referring to are available to everyone in America, Joe?

They are obviously available to more Americans than Canadians because the Canadian government restricts what drugs are available on the market there.

 

[Sunstone]

They are obviously available to more Americans than Canadians because the Canadian government restricts what drugs are available on the market there.

That's not a structural problem of socialized medicine, Joe.

 

[Smoke]

Barbara was failed by government-run healthcare. While her particular case may have not been salvaged in the free market, when you have government-run healthcare you have more Barbara Wagner's.

The second part is right. We have more Barbara Wagners under government-administered healthcare. Under your plan, we wouldn't have more Barbara Wagners, we'd have fewer.

Barbara wasn't failed by government-run healthcare. She got three years of excellent care that she could not possibly have afforded in a free market. She even got the drug she wanted, though not through the OHP. It didn't help. Barbara was well-served by her healthcare plan. She would not have been served at all under your plan. Barbara Wagners -- people well-served by their healthcare plan -- would be far fewer under your plan. Scores of millions of people would wish they were as lucky as Barbara Wagner.

 

[Joe_Stocks]

Hi Smoke,

The second part is right. We have more Barbara Wagners under government-administered healthcare. Under your plan, we wouldn't have more Barbara Wagners, we'd have fewer.

Barbara wasn't failed by government-run healthcare. She got three years of excellent care that she could not possibly have afforded in a free market. She even got the drug she wanted, though not through the OHP. It didn't help. Barbara was well-served by her healthcare plan. She would not have been served at all under your plan. Barbara Wagners -- people well-served by their healthcare plan -- would be far fewer under your plan. Scores of millions of people would wish they were as lucky as Barbara Wagner.

So, you are just going to ignore the fact that in countries with socialized healthcare the government restricts the access to life-saving and sustaining drugs. And that we, in the U.S. have greater access to the most cutting edge pharmaceuticals on the market.

Nice Alan Grayson impersonation by the way.

 

[Sunstone]

So, you are just going to ignore the fact that in countries with socialized healthcare the government restricts the access to life-saving and sustaining drugs. And that we, in the U.S. have greater access to the most cutting edge pharmaceuticals on the market.

In America, Joe, millions of people lack "greater access to the most cutting edge pharmaceuticals on the market" due to their bankruptcy caused by obscenely high medical costs. Are you going to ignore them?

 

[Joe_Stocks]

Hi Sunstone,

You are also forgetting that the majority of drugs on the U.S. market today are generics, just copies of the expensive brand name drug after the patent protection runs out.

So, the claim that these drugs are just lying around is false.

 

[Sunstone]

Hi Sunstone,

You are also forgetting that the majority of drugs on the U.S. market today are generics, just copies of the expensive brand name drug after the patent protection runs out.

So, the claim that these drugs are just lying around is false.

That's irrelevant, Joe, because the fact remains that millions of people have gone bankrupt because of the high cost of medicine in the US and those people do not have access to those drugs in any form whatsoever.

 

[Joe_Stocks]

Hi Sunstone,

In America, Joe, millions of people lack "greater access to the most cutting edge pharmaceuticals on the market" due to their bankruptcy caused by obscenely high medical costs. Are you going to ignore them?

See my last post (#75) and why are medical costs going up?

What aspect of the evil free market is driving the cost of healthcare up?

 

[Sunstone]

Hi Sunstone,



See my last post (#75) and why are medical costs going up?

What aspect of the evil free market is driving the cost of healthcare up?

Are you saying we have a free market for medicine in this country? Just curious.

 

[Joe_Stocks]

Hi Sunstone,

Are you saying we have a free market for medicine in this country? Just curious.

I'm not. However, many supporters of single-payer mistakenly believe that we have a free market for health insurance and healthcare and blame high medical costs on the 'for proft' healthcare system here.

 

[Joe_Stocks]

Hi Sunstone,

That's not a structural problem of socialized medicine, Joe.

It's a moral problem with socialized healthcare.