What Must You Know to be Enlightened?

[doppelganger]

Wisdom comes through God. From a spiritual and life perspective, the closer you draw to a relationship with God, the more wisdom God will bestow upon you and in turn, you're more enlightened in the most important areas of your life.

If by "God" you mean "the realization of one's ignorance" or "the experience of not knowing," then I agree.

"For a man - even one very well versed in learning - will attain unto nothing more perfect than to be found to be most learned in the ignorance which is distinctively his. The more he knows that he is unknowing, the more learned he will be." - Nicholas of Cusa, De Docta Ignorantia

 

[Eddy Daze]

I read a quote recently that said "Seek only the knowledge that will hurt no man", can't see how that is possible in practice though.

I think the first thing one needs to realise is the true self, we are not these bodies, not these brains, but the permanent spirit spark, these bodies are simply temporary structures that will last what seems like a nanotwinkle in the eye of eternity.

 

[Alceste]

Some good comments on this thread. I would only add that the concept of enlightenment is better understood as a fleeting experience than a permanent state. There are no "enlightened" individuals, but the experience of enlightenment results in some significant, lasting psychological changes that manifest as (what is outwardly perceived as) wisdom and (what is inwardly perceived as) self-awareness.

A word on non-duality - I don't agree with some here who define this as unity with the whole. This is a dualistic position (either you are an individual, or you are part of the whole). In my experience, a non-dualistic perspective is the recognition that you are an individual AND a part of the whole, and there is no sense of contradiction or opposition.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

In my experience, a non-dualistic perspective is the recognition that you are an individual AND a part of the whole, and there is no sense of contradiction or opposition.

Hi Alceste, a non-dualistic perspective is an oxymoron, i.e.the term 'perspective' means the appearance of things relative to each other, and therefore implies duality. However if one ignores this point, your post does convey the intellectual perspective quite well..

IOW, enlightenment or non-duality, is non-discriminatory,...period, whereas the non-enlightened perceive themselves to be part of the whole, whilst in fact nothing is actually separate from the whole at all. It is only perceived to be so by a mind that thinks within a dualistic self reference framework of 'I' and 'not I', 'part' and 'whole', etc..

 

[Runewolf1973]

Enlightenment IS a permanent state. There is no beginning and no end. Just IS. Only the *MIND* leads us to believe we are not enlightened when truly we are ALL enlightened. Everything that exists is enlightened. It is that "animate" vibrational force that is in all energy forms. The "spirit" that all things, even a rock or a tree have. It is the power to exist. Just because we can talk and perceive, does that make us any better of an energy form than a rock or tree? Are we as humans more worthy to exist? No. We are the same energy. ALL is ONE.

 

[Alceste]

Hi Alceste, a non-dualistic perspective is an oxymoron, i.e.the term 'perspective' means the appearance of things relative to each other, and therefore implies duality. However if one ignores this point, your post does convey the intellectual perspective quite well..

Perspective has several meanings. "A mental view or outlook" is one of them. Your definition above is another.

IOW, enlightenment or non-duality, is non-discriminatory,...period, whereas the non-enlightened perceive themselves to be part of the whole, whilst in fact nothing is actually separate from the whole at all. It is only perceived to be so by a mind that thinks within a dualistic self reference framework of 'I' and 'not I', 'part' and 'whole', etc..

I disagree. It's the "...period" that does it. You've sorted your world into "these" and "those" - the non-discriminatory (enlightened / non-dualistic) and the discriminatory (unenlightened / dualistic) with that bit of emphatic punctuation.

Non-dualism means the release of the "either / or" perspective (as in "mental view or outlook"). People can perceive themselves as individuals or as part of a whole but will remain dualistic as long as they believe they have to be one or the other.

Also, IMO, non-dualism is only one aspect (among many) of the experience of enlightenment. It's certainly not the whole deal.

 

[Runewolf1973]

Enlightenment is not an "experience" to be had like experiencing fear or sorrow or happiness, all matters of the *MIND*. It is a realization of being. Once that realization is made, there are no more questions about God and life and eternity. All the answers are already there. There is no fear of dying. There is no need for a God. There is no death. All is enlightenment.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

Perspective has several meanings. "A mental view or outlook" is one of them.

Also, IMO, non-dualism is only one aspect (among many) of the experience of enlightenment. It's certainly not the whole deal.

Hi Alceste, it is clear that your understanding of the meaning of enlightenment is vastly different to mine.

"A mental view or outlook" is clearly a mind conceptualization and is not real in itself (except as a concept), but is meant to represent symbolically the Reality for which it stands for.

It is my understanding that 'enlightenment' is not an experience to be had, it represents the ineffable and is beyond all mind conceptualization.

However since you do appear to be of a contrary opinion, could you please explain what or who is it that experiences enlightenment?

 

[Alceste]

Hi Alceste, it is clear that your understanding of the meaning of enlightenment is vastly different to mine.

"A mental view or outlook" is clearly a mind conceptualization and is not real in itself (except as a concept), but is meant to represent symbolically the Reality for which it stands for.

It is my understanding that 'enlightenment' is not an experience to be had, it represents the ineffable and is beyond all mind conceptualization.

However since you do appear to be of a contrary opinion, could you please explain what or who is it that experiences enlightenment?

A perspective doesn't have to be a conceptualization. You can't help but be a focal point of awareness. That's the nature of existence. No matter how in tune with "reality" we believe ourselves to be, we will never be somebody or something else, never perceive anything with anybody's senses but our own. A person has the experience of enlightenment when awareness is experienced without any accumulated conceptual rubbish, like judgment, dogma or attachment (including the attachment to "Reality").

You are right though, the experience is difficult to talk about because it is impossible to conceptualize. When you try to pin it down with words it skitters away into the shadows because language is riddled with judgment, dogma and attachment. Those who have these experiences can easily recognize one another, and that seems to be enough.

I should mention there are a lot of different flavours of enlightenment though. A person's enlightenment experience is a reflection of themselves, and no two beings are alike.

 

[Eddy Daze]

I think the state of becoming one with the whole is an illusion, it may look as if a river has become one with the sea but the entity of the river remains, the individual molecules and entities within remain as individuals.

 

[Runewolf1973]

To me it is not about "becoming" one with the whole. Even as *WE* retain our individual energy, molecules, etc...that energy is already one with existence. *WE* are a part of that existence or energy that has changed into what *WE* are. It is almost like existence is one great tapestry with one thread that makes the whole fabric of it. *WE* are like an individual "knot" in this thread. That "knot" will always be there and can never be undone. It is what makes us "appear" separate from all the other "knots", but ultimately, all of existence lies on the same ONE thread. A thread that has no beginning and no end.

 

[Willamena]

To me it is not about "becoming" one with the whole...

If this resonates with you, I offer it in agreeance: that even the idea of having a "whole" is a fragment of what we are becoming.

(Of course, I may think differently once I'm sober.)

 

[Ben Dhyan]

I should mention there are a lot of different flavours of enlightenment though. A person's enlightenment experience is a reflection of themselves, and no two beings are alike.

Hi Alceste, due to your understanding of 'enlightenment ' being at variance with my present understanding, there is plenty of scope for misunderstanding, so it is probably of little merit in continuing the discussion.

FYI though, here is an unenlightened mind's perspective.

A mortal, a person that is, will never in all eternity become enlightened due to cosmic design constraints, i.e. eternal spirit incarnate in temporary body.
However it my understanding that it is possible through a proper and appropriately lived life, in combination with some mysterious cosmic transformation, 'grace' or some such, for the presently incarnate spiritual soul to realize it's inseparableness from the whole and leave this flesh body (not by way of the back door through compulsion brought on by physical death, but voluntarily by the front door through a love born of truth for union with one's own real permanent nature) to be 'born of the spirit', i.e. enlightenment.

 

[Runewolf1973]

Just my perspective as well. It is my understanding that "mortality" is an illusion. Death does not exist, for ALL energy, even that which is "seemingly" inanimate, is ANIMATE and has Spirit. Therefore, even that which is seemingly our mortal "dead" bodies after the spirit passes over, is still animate living energy changing form. Existence is Alive. All existence is enlightened. Even a rock is animate, vibrational "living" energy. Perhaps that's why I follow Animism ever so slightly more so than Buddhism, but that's just me. Both beliefs (at least from my perspective) seem to blend quite harmoniously together.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

Just my perspective as well. It is my understanding that "mortality" is an illusion. Death does not exist, for ALL energy, even that which is "seemingly" inanimate, is ANIMATE and has Spirit. Therefore, even that which is seemingly our mortal "dead" bodies after the spirit passes over, is still animate living energy changing form. Existence is Alive. All existence is enlightened. Even a rock is animate, vibrational "living" energy. Perhaps that's why I follow Animism ever so slightly more so than Buddhism, but that's just me. Both beliefs (at least from my perspective) seem to blend quite harmoniously together.

Hi Runewolf, yes agree with that perspective as well, however the point I was trying to convey was that of the temporal nature of thoughts associated with mortal minds. This will always be so, and so enlightenment is forever beyond it's grasp.

This is another way of expressing it,...the enlightened Unity of all there is reveals to the unenlightened mortal thus,..

Thoughts

I chatter over stony ways,
In little sharps and trebles,
I bubble into eddying bays,
I babble on the pebbles.

I chatter, chatter, as I flow
To join the brimming river,
For men may come and men may go,
But I go on for ever.

Alfred,Lord Tennyson

 

[Runewolf1973]

Hi Runewolf, yes agree with that perspective as well, however the point I was trying to convey was that of the temporal nature of thoughts associated with mortal minds. This will always be so, and so enlightenment is forever beyond it's grasp.

This is another way of expressing it,...the enlightened Unity of all there is reveals to the unenlightened mortal thus,..

Thoughts

I chatter over stony ways,
In little sharps and trebles,
I bubble into eddying bays,
I babble on the pebbles.

I chatter, chatter, as I flow
To join the brimming river,
For men may come and men may go,
But I go on for ever.

Alfred,Lord Tennyson

Thanks Ben!

 

[zenzero]

Friends,
Now if the ripples have stopped, could we go into SILENCE, each on our own becoming a drop in silence unlimited.
LOve & rgds

 

[Darkwater]

I read a quote recently that said "Seek only the knowledge that will hurt no man", can't see how that is possible in practice though.

I think the first thing one needs to realise is the true self, we are not these bodies, not these brains, but the permanent spirit spark, these bodies are simply temporary structures that will last what seems like a nanotwinkle in the eye of eternity.

We are an emotional body attached to a carbon based lifeform.The tenant of our soul.

With some work you *become* greater in your own image,Eternal even once you place your small crystal chip into the far greater crystal sun.

What colour is your twinkle?You a Rocat?

 

[Darkwater]

Just my perspective as well. It is my understanding that "mortality" is an illusion. Death does not exist, for ALL energy, even that which is "seemingly" inanimate, is ANIMATE and has Spirit. Therefore, even that which is seemingly our mortal "dead" bodies after the spirit passes over, is still animate living energy changing form. Existence is Alive. All existence is enlightened. Even a rock is animate, vibrational "living" energy. Perhaps that's why I follow Animism ever so slightly more so than Buddhism, but that's just me. Both beliefs (at least from my perspective) seem to blend quite harmoniously together.

Hi Runewolf,I believe you are perfectly correct.....how well are you connected?

You hang out at the Sweat Lodge to converse with the parts of your eternal soul?There is one mighty warrior I am conversing with,you maybe know him?

All the best,

Andy

 

[Eddy Daze]

DW...the mental/emotional bodies and the astral body may be simply subtler vehicles for the spirit spark.