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What of Hell? Why must there be one? Why must we suffer?

Popeyesays

Well-Known Member
dawny0826 said:
So what of biblical references of hell. Do you ignore those and cling to this one?
I do not believe heaven and hell are locations.
They are states of being. They are symbols for states of being. One makes one's self close to or remote from God on the basis of one's own actions and ommissions. That is judgement.

But we do not face God's judgement alone - we also face God's grace, God's mercy, God's bounty, God's forgiveness at the same time.

The Hebrew image of "hell" has nothing to do with what the scholars of the King James version of the Bible thought. Sheol means simply the grave, not hell. So everything should be understood with these provisos in mind.

Don't fear hell - it doesn't exist. Don't fear judgement, because it is filtered by mercy, forgiveness, love, bounty and all the other realities of God's creation. Bring yourself and your words and actions to account each day, be what you say you stand for - and judgement will not find you wanting.

Regards,
Scott
 

dawny0826

Mother Heathen
michel said:
O.K, so I know I am 'unconventional'; I don't buy into the 'hell' thing either. As Jeffrey said, I think it is something we make for ourselves here on Earth.

Would a father (even if cross with his children, because they had been naughty) send them to an everlasting fire ?
God makes it pretty clear in the Bible that we have a choice. We can either accept his plan for our salvation or do our own thing. We have free will.

I'm doing an in depth study of the OT of the Bible right now. God made it very clear what the consequences for certain actions would be. In fact, GOD Himself, proclaimed the punishment for many defiancies to be DEATH.

He Loves us...which is why he sent Christ to die for our sins. The entire purpose of Christ's sacrifice was to SAVE us from destruction...to save us from eternal damnation.
 

dawny0826

Mother Heathen
Popeyesays said:
I do not believe heaven and hell are locations.
They are states of being. They are symbols for states of being. One makes one's self close to or remote from God on the basis of one's own actions and ommissions. That is judgement.

But we do not face God's judgement alone - we also face God's grace, God's mercy, God's bounty, God's forgiveness at the same time.

The Hebrew image of "hell" has nothing to do with what the scholars of the King James version of the Bible thought. Sheol means simply the grave, not hell. So everything should be understood with these provisos in mind.

Don't fear hell - it doesn't exist. Don't fear judgement, because it is filtered by mercy, forgiveness, love, bounty and all the other realities of God's creation. Bring yourself and your words and actions to account each day, be what you say you stand for - and judgement will not find you wanting.

Regards,
Scott
Scott, do you feel there are negative consequences for negative actions?
 

spacemonkey

Pneumatic Spiritualist
This is yet another example of the twisting of the words of Christ by the followers of the Demiurge. Hell is here, we are all in it, it is all around us. While we are imprissoned here by the Demiurge we are seperated from the God of Love and Light, that is what Hell is. Only through Gnosis can we escape this "Hell".
 

dawny0826

Mother Heathen
spacemonkey said:
This is yet another example of the twisting of the words of Christ by the followers of the Demiurge. Hell is here, we are all in it, it is all around us. While we are imprissoned here by the Demiurge we are seperated from the God of Love and Light, that is what Hell is. Only through Gnosis can we escape this "Hell".
Expound...
 

spacemonkey

Pneumatic Spiritualist
dawny0826 said:
Expound...
The "god" of the OT is NOT the one preached about by Jesus. In fact the Bible is made up of two COMPLETELY differant sets of texts that have nothing to do with each other. The Demiurge is another name for the OT "god" (Demiurge being Greek for "craftsman" or in other words the creator) who is an imperfect creation, a being of matter but without the "divine spark" of the True God of Light and Love. Jesus (among other teachers) spoke of a God of mercy, love, and forgivness; all traits that are definately NOT expressed by the "god" of the OT.

You should check out some of the Gnostic forums for more detailed inforation.
 

dawny0826

Mother Heathen
spacemonkey said:
The "god" of the OT is NOT the one preached about by Jesus. In fact the Bible is made up of two COMPLETELY differant sets of texts that have nothing to do with each other. The Demiurge is another name for the OT "god" (Demiurge being Greek for "craftsman" or in other words the creator) who is an imperfect creation, a being of matter but without the "divine spark" of the True God of Light and Love. Jesus (among other teachers) spoke of a God of mercy, love, and forgivness; all traits that are definately NOT expressed by the "god" of the OT.

You should check out some of the Gnostic forums for more detailed inforation.
I disagree...but I do find your thoughts on God very interesting.

Do you read the OT and NT?
 

Mathematician

Reason, and reason again
Victor said:
GeneCosta, I'm sure you believe in our jail system correct? If you do, what's difference between the two?
In our jail system, you are still given a reasonable timeframe. As has been said many times before, why does 80 years of mistakes equal infinite years of torture?

Also, in our jails, we don't torture. I'm against all torture 100% of the time.
 

Popeyesays

Well-Known Member
dawny0826 said:
Scott, do you feel there are negative consequences for negative actions?
I do; however I believe that repentance brings salvation and salvation is from God.

From my own Scriptures:
"31. O SON OF BEING!
Bring thyself to account each day ere thou art summoned to a reckoning; for death, unheralded, shall come upon thee and thou shalt be called to give account for thy deeds.
32. O SON OF THE SUPREME!
I have made death a messenger of joy to thee. Wherefore dost thou grieve? I made the light to shed on thee its splendor. Why dost thou veil thyself therefrom?
33. O SON OF SPIRIT!
With the joyful tidings of light I hail thee: rejoice! To the court of holiness I summon thee; abide therein that thou mayest live in peace for evermore.
34. O SON OF SPIRIT!
The spirit of holiness beareth unto thee the joyful tidings of reunion; wherefore dost thou grieve? The spirit of power confirmeth thee in His cause; why dost thou veil thyself? The light of His countenance doth lead thee; how canst thou go astray?
35. O SON OF MAN!
Sorrow not save that thou art far from Us. Rejoice not save that thou art drawing near and returning unto Us."

Regards,
Scott
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber & Business Owner
GeneCosta, I'm sure you believe in our jail system correct? If you do, what's difference between the two?
I don't believe in it in its current state. It is over crowded with people that shouldn't be thier, such as innocents, people who pose no threat to society, such as potheads, and victims that may have commited a misdeminor, but the legal word game made it seem worse, and corrupt cops causing trouble, and throwing people in jail for standing up for themeselves.

I believe the only 'Hell' is what we live through on earth. For me, it is a job that promised regular time off, getting scheduled for 35 hours, then having to be scheduled for 50 to cover up for other people. Next week is the 5th week in a row. A good example, working second shift (1:30-10:30pm), then having to come back in for the second half of third shift(1-6am), working second again that same day, then working first shift (5:30am-2:30pm). I was supposed to have four days in a row off this week, but ended up working three of the four, could have worked all four, but I refused the work with a good strong NO, which I'll probably get wrote up for since it was the shift manager that asked me to cover for her. Sorry for the small rant, I know alot of jobs do this, but its something I've really had to get off my chest. Seems like I've been living thier.
 

Quiddity

UndertheInfluenceofGiants
GeneCosta said:
In our jail system, you are still given a reasonable timeframe.
What is a reasonable timeframe?

GeneCosta said:
As has been said many times before, why does 80 years of mistakes equal infinite years of torture?
Mistakes are not necessarily waht get you to hell. A corrupt nature will. A uncorrupt nature always has it within his/her capacity to say sorry. It would actually be impossible for a uncorrupt nature to go to hell. People that go to hell are fully aware of what they are choosing. And it was fully within in their capacity (even if they are atheist) to say "sorry" when they hurt someone.

GeneCosta said:
Also, in our jails, we don't torture. I'm against all torture 100% of the time.
I have no idea what happens in hell. Just know it's not pleasant.
 

c0da

Active Member
Would somebody clue me in please. Do Christians believe that a person who does not believe in god and will not awknowledge him as the perfect being that they think he is, yet they live their life helping other people, would go to hell for their non-believing.
 

Popeyesays

Well-Known Member
c0da2006 said:
Would somebody clue me in please. Do Christians believe that a person who does not believe in god and will not awknowledge him as the perfect being that they think he is, yet they live their life helping other people, would go to hell for their non-believing.
I think many Christians would say that, but many would not. It is a bad mistake to assume that all Christians, or all Muslims or all Hindus, think alike on anything.

Regards,
Scott
 

Bangbang

Active Member
Hell is basically just a garbage dump with an eternal flame that destroys everything dumped in it.
 

Ronald

Well-Known Member
Bangbang said:
Hell is basically just a garbage dump with an eternal flame that destroys everything dumped in it.
Hell is she'ol in Hebrew and it as Bangbang the burial place. Death and hades are thrown into the lake of fire and burned up and are NO More in the New Jerusalem.
The major difference is the language, Greeks believe in hell as the holding pen of lost souls and Hebrews believe when you are dead you are in the grave, the breath(ruach) has returned to God and the body has returned to the dust.
My God is the god of Abraham, Issac and Jaccob, they are Hebrew.
If your god is Greek you may have an immortal soul!:biglaugh:
 

dan

Well-Known Member
Hebrew is a very expressive language. Occidental speakers often have trouble trying to reconcile such flowery language with their own interprative natures. Hell is not a lake of fire. It is not a bunch of demons laughing over your burnign soul. Hell literally is the place of the dead. The valley of Hinnom, south of Jerusalem, is where people get the idea that Hell is a lake of fire. In this valley garbage was thrown into a perpetually burning fire. Hell is actually living without God. We experience this on a much smaller level every time we knowingly reject the counsel of God and He withdraws His spirit. The metaphor for burning is just our conscience searing the thought of what could have been into our minds.

Another misconception is that everyone that is not perfect goes to Hell. Hell is reserved for a select few people. You cannot be saved in ignorance, but you cannot be condemned either. Those who have not accepted the Lord because they don't understand are not held accountable for this. You must accept the Lord and receive all that He has and then sin against His spirit to qualify for such a condemnation. God loves us and He weeps over our wellbeing, believer or non. He is the perfect Father in every way; but He is also just. He told us the plan and we accepted. He tries to help us in every way He can without denying us our agency, and He cannot condemn someone who has never had the chance to accept Him.

Many of you preach doctrines of hate and fear and intolerance, but God is loving and has provided for every single one of His children. Tell me where, in all that I have said, exists the slightest example of anythign less than unconditional love?
 

BUDDY

User of Aspercreme
This brings of the question, is hell a spiritual or physical realm? In my opinion, it will be a spiritual realm, and thus the pain that many believe that we will feel, is not the same type of pain we imagine as we are now in our physical bodies.
 

dawny0826

Mother Heathen
BUDDY said:
This brings of the question, is hell a spiritual or physical realm? In my opinion, it will be a spiritual realm, and thus the pain that many believe that we will feel, is not the same type of pain we imagine as we are now in our physical bodies.
I believe that heaven is a spiritual realm. Ahtough, I feel that we will have bodies when we die...I believe most of the anguish and pain will be experienced on a spiritual level.
 

dan

Well-Known Member
Everyone will resurrect and get their body back, irrespective of their actions on earth. There will be a physical seperation of the damned, but their suffering will be emotional and spiritual anguish, not physical.
 

MdmSzdWhtGuy

Well-Known Member
Youzer. I just wrote for 20 minutes only to hit an incorrect key on the keyboard and lost the entire text I was writing. Hmm, after I set down this cup of hemlock tea, I will attempt to recreate a truncated version of what I just wrote.


The gist of what I was writing is that I feel we are more likely to get an idea of the original writer's original meaning on any given concept by going directly to the source, and working our way out from there. As an example, we all probably remember the little kids' gossip game, where a story is told by the first child to the second, and we all laughed at how much different the story was by the time it got all the way around the room.

When dealing with scriptures I think this problem is compounded by the thousands of years of time which transpires, and further compounded by translation from one language to another to another and so forth. I can imagine a given text referencing Hell or sheol in Hebrew, to have been originally written in Hebrew, then translated to Greek, then later to Latin, then later to Old English, then to the New International Version by the time I get around to reading it. Now, which version out of those 5 is most likely to convey the original author's original meaning? My money is on the Hebrew version.

Sheol has always been translated, to my knowledge as "common grave" or something very similar. I am currently reading the old testament, in the King James version of the bible, and I don't, thus far in my reading notice any references to Hell. When God gets mad at someone, and he does a lot, in the OT, he either kills them outright, or has some of his followers kill them. No mention of any torment of their soul, at least thus far.

I think the Christian version of Hell is influenced heavily by Paul's writings (Revelation in particular) and just as much by Dante's Inferno. I can imagine, tho I do not know this, that Hell was a useful concept by the early Church. It is a nice hammer to hold over the heads of your paritioners. Fork over 10% of your income to the Church, and do what we tell you. If you do this, you get a great reward in Heaven, but if you fail to do as we say, then you will be tormented in Hellfire for all of eternity.

Now the poor mideavel peasants hearing this were not sophisticated enough to realize that if this was a physical fire burning a physical body, then there would be a finite amount of burning until said body was totally consumed by the fire. Nor were they sophisticated enough to realize that if this were a literal fire burning their everlasting soul, then a spiritual body (soul) was not likely to be harmed by any literal fire. So in the end I think that the Christian concept of Hell is used in the same way that my Dad used a belt. . . it is used to keep people in line.

I am curious, to those who do beleive in Heaven and Hell, who goes to each? I follow about 7 or 8 of the 10 commandments, personally, but do not regularly attend Church and do not believe that there is any reason to believe that there is a Biblical God, but am a fan of Jesus' teachings of love for your fellow man, and beleive that emulating Jesus is a fine goal. Am I to be cast into Hellfire along with Hitler, Saddam, and Edi Amin? I hear from lots of people in my real life that I am, but frankly I find this to be a more well educated crowd than I tend to deal with in my every day life, and am curious to hear what this learned crowd thinks.

What are the minimal requirements to get into Heaven?

More importantly, what are the minimal requirements to stay out of Hell?

B.
 
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