Thankyou. It wasn't a trap, but you did prove my point . The real debate isn't about syntax , linguistics , did the authors know greek , an issue over some verse seemingly contradicting another blah blah blah! . No its for the reasons you give. Which is ironic given the nature of the 66 books we call the bible. It being about God . And it recording supernatural events . What do people expect ? a car manual?
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What ONE critical piece of information made you decide to believe or disbelieve Jesus rose?
- Thread starter SeekingAllTruth
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- resurrection
This is a very important point. Leaving God out of any question relating to scripture will lead to no solid conclusions. Indecision will continue to create confusion and division.
@SeekingAllTruth, in simplistic terms, there are two camps...the “believers” and the “unbelievers”. Since there is no “proof” for God, it requires “faith” to “believe”, based on evidence that can be seen. (Creation) For the majority of Christians, creation is more than enough evidence for God’s existence. But taking the creation away from its Creator, is enough for ‘unbelievers’ to completely dismiss him. Ironically, we take our position based on what we have been led to “ believe”.
Apparently there is also some sort of fence in between these two camps, called agnosticism.....those who seem to want to believe, but need more “proof”. From the scriptural perspective, there is no such place as a permanent area to sit and wonder. It can be a platform to use until a decision is made, but there will never be more “proof” for God.....until it is too late to make a decision.
For an example of this, take the account of the flood of Noah’s day. Jesus used it as an example of what would occur again....and for the same reasons. (Matthew 24:37-39) How many acted on the warning that Noah gave? Did they wish they had listened when they had time to act? How many lamented that they had not taken his words a more seriously after the water started rising? And doesn’t it demonstrate a clear division between those who believe and obey, and those who don’t? Our stance is often dictated by popular opinion....people bounce off the opinions and actions of others and collectively they feel more secure in their position.....after all, can millions of people be wrong? In a world ruled by the devil, the answer is YES! (1 John 5:19) The platform of indecision is in the wrong camp.
So, where does faith come from? The capacity for ‘belief’ is based on how we perceive what we see and hear. I believe that spiritual capacity is born in us...you cannot manufacture it. It is locked inside every heart, but only God can unlock it. Some don’t want it unlocked because they chafe at the perceived loss of freedom that comes with acknowledging a Creator. They don’t want to be told what to do or what to believe....and God stands back to see who responds to his creation and to his instructions....he is searching hearts to see who is worthy of his invitation. (John 6:44; 65) He wants to reward them for trusting in him. The reward is huge, but it’s love for God that is the major motivation, the reward is secondary.
Does God care what unbelievers have to say about him? He is not interested in those who are not interested in him. Why would he be? He has nothing to prove to them.
We are all in the process of being divided into what the Bible calls “sheep and goats”. The “sheep” are those who have followed Jesus’ teachings in their daily lives, and they are rewarded for their efforts in a world going in the opposite direction....the “goats” however, have no idea that they have been judged and found wanting until it’s too late. (Matthew 24:31-34; 41, 46) Everlasting death will be their wages. Like those in Noah’s day they will probably wish that they had paid more attention.
The saddest category, according to the words of Jesus Christ recorded in the scriptures, are those who have adopted beliefs of man’s making, but who have no idea that what they believe is satanically inspired lies. These are goats in sheep suits. (Matthew 7:21-23) They have swallowed these lies willingly because they don’t really love the truth, but prefer these lies. (2 Thessalonians 2:9-12) Jesus will give these ones a stinging rejection as those he “NEVER knew”.
If Jesus did not rise from the dead, then we are still lost, with no hope for anything better in the future. The suicide rate continues to climb because so many people have lost all hope. Jesus’ death and resurrection are the basis of our hope. For too many, this life is not worth living if we have to depend on man for our future.
We all have choices....but we have to understand that God does too.
SeekingAllTruth
Well-Known Member
De providentia 1 and 2, De animalibus, De aeternitate and Quod omnis probus of Philo of Alexandria
SeekingAllTruth
Well-Known Member
Colt
Well-Known Member
Philosophy, Zoology, Thomas Aquinas, Philo on Jewish theology.
Christianity was a small cult inside Judaism for a while.
sealchan
Well-Known Member
I believe. I believe in the resurrection, I believe in the several examples of resurrections from many faith traditions which all have the same amount of historical evidence...but I don't require them to be historical truths. In fact, like the Paul in this motion picture, I would believe EVEN IF it didn't ever actually happen...which it probably didn't.
I would argue that such a faith as mine is much stronger than one pinned to the historicity of a particular example (or even exclusivity) of a resurrection. Because if it was one day proved that such a resurrection didn't in fact ever happen...I would still have my faith.
I can't believe that you would put up a video of a man who experienced an NDE and use it as counter to what I said....
Did you know that NDE's are not really a spiritual experience (though they can be interpreted as such depending on the person having it).....they are something induced by a rush of hallucinogenic chemicals into a dying brain? Only dying people have them without drugs.....and the one thing they all have in common.
Anyone who has ever had an acid trip will know how real these hallucinations are.
For a fact there are people who have NDE's in other religious cultures that mimic their own belief system. So for e.g. a Muslim, they will have Islamic experiences and for other faith systems, the NDE is linked to that belief system. Where is God in that scenario? Is he deliberately causing confusion? Why would he do that?
It has been found that NDE's have a common thread....four main themes emerged in studies conducted in people of different faiths, including 1) pleasing experiences along with flying and seeing light, 2) the experience of transport to the beyond, 3) out-of-body experience, and 4) reviewing life and memories in a religious context.
Now if there is one God who created us, and nowhere does the Bible indicate that we have a separate spiritual part of us that exists the body at death, why would he give people in different faiths, a different experience according to their own beliefs. He demonstrated clearly, his abhorrence of all false religion because it is a product of his adversary....a powerful spirit rebel.
Now, does this adversary gain some benefit from those NDE's that people of all faiths experience? Have you ever explored this possibility?
These NDE's are impossible without belief in a separate conscious "soul" that departs from the body at death. But this belief does not come from scripture.....it comes from the first lie that the devil told in Eden...."you surely will not die". (Genesis 3:4) God told them that they would.....so who lied?
At Genesis 2:7..."The Lord God went on to form the man out of dust from the ground and to blow into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living soul."
So the "soul" here is translated in many modern Bibles as "person" or "being" because that is what a "soul" is....a living, breathing creature. The man "became" a soul with "the breath of life"...he was not given one.
Once the breath of life is extinguished, the "soul" dies. (Ezekiel 18:4) There is nothing inside man to experience an NDE except a brain that is not yet "dead". There are altered states of consciousness.
What did God tell Adam?
Genesis 3:19...
"In the sweat of your face you will eat bread until you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken. For dust you are and to dust you will return.” There is no mention of an immortal part of man departing to live on after death in a different realm....
In fact God went on to say...“Behold, the man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil; and now, he might reach out with his hand, and take fruit also from the tree of life, and eat, and live forever”— 23 therefore the Lord God sent him out of the Garden of Eden, to cultivate the ground from which he was taken. 24 So He drove the man out; and at the east of the Garden of Eden He stationed the cherubim and the flaming sword which turned every direction to guard the way to the tree of life."
God went to great lengths to ensure that there was no everlasting life possible for those who sin. Death was the penalty and it was the cessation of life. (Ecclesiastes 9:5, 10)
So logically, if there is nothing inside man that survives death, then NDE's obviously have another explanation.
In a weakened state, who would take advantage of a person's vulnerability?
In the video you posted, what year was this? 1943? The man was in the military.....somewhere no genuine Christian would ever be. (based on Matthew 5:43-44) He was American, so in that time most people would have identified as "Christian". Was there any sophisticated medical equipment to test brain death at that time? And I wonder how long it was between when the man "died" and when he revived? We all know that a human brain cannot survive long without oxygen, otherwise irreversible brain damage will occur. He was not brain damaged, so his brain was not without oxygen for very long. His outcome does not match his "experience".
What else can we explain about NDE's that fit satan's MO? What about that brilliant light that is invariably mentioned?
2 Corinthians 11:14-15...
"No wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light. 15 Therefore it is not surprising if his servants also disguise themselves as servants of righteousness, whose end will be according to their deeds."
Here we have a description of satan as "an angel of light"...a fake light that is designed to deceive, mimicking the "light" that was to come from Jesus Christ.
What about the feeling of an "out of body experience"? Don't we have the apostle Paul's experiences that were given to him by Jesus? Did he travel outside of his body? Or was it a vision given to him inside his own mind that felt like he had left and gone somewhere else? Don't we do that ourselves in our dreams?
And lastly that review of life memories, flashing before their eyes.....who has been around since the beginning and knows everything about everyone? We should never underestimate the deceptive power of our common enemy.
A deceived person does not recognize the deception until it is either pointed out to them, or the results come crashing down on them when it is too late.
Some who have NDE's have nothing but a nightmare, and were glad to 'wake up'. Others have no experience at all.
SeekingAllTruth
Well-Known Member
I can't believe that you would put up a video of a man who experienced an NDE and use it as counter to what I said....
Did you know that NDE's are not really a spiritual experience (though they can be interpreted as such depending on the person having it).....they are something induced by a rush of hallucinogenic chemicals into a dying brain? Only dying people have them without drugs.....and the one thing they all have in common.
Anyone who has ever had an acid trip will know how real these hallucinations are.
For a fact there are people who have NDE's in other religious cultures that mimic their own belief system. So for e.g. a Muslim, they will have Islamic experiences and for other faith systems, the NDE is linked to that belief system. Where is God in that scenario? Is he deliberately causing confusion? Why would he do that?
It has been found that NDE's have a common thread....four main themes emerged in studies conducted in people of different faiths, including 1) pleasing experiences along with flying and seeing light, 2) the experience of transport to the beyond, 3) out-of-body experience, and 4) reviewing life and memories in a religious context.
Now if there is one God who created us, and nowhere does the Bible indicate that we have a separate spiritual part of us that exists the body at death, why would he give people in different faiths, a different experience according to their own beliefs. He demonstrated clearly, his abhorrence of all false religion because it is a product of his adversary....a powerful spirit rebel.
Now, does this adversary gain some benefit from those NDE's that people of all faiths experience? Have you ever explored this possibility?
These NDE's are impossible without belief in a separate conscious "soul" that departs from the body at death. But this belief does not come from scripture.....it comes from the first lie that the devil told in Eden...."you surely will not die". (Genesis 3:4) God told them that they would.....so who lied?
At Genesis 2:7..."The Lord God went on to form the man out of dust from the ground and to blow into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living soul."
So the "soul" here is translated in many modern Bibles as "person" or "being" because that is what a "soul" is....a living, breathing creature. The man "became" a soul with "the breath of life"...he was not given one.
Once the breath of life is extinguished, the "soul" dies. (Ezekiel 18:4) There is nothing inside man to experience an NDE except a brain that is not yet "dead". There are altered states of consciousness.
What did God tell Adam?
Genesis 3:19...
"In the sweat of your face you will eat bread until you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken. For dust you are and to dust you will return.” There is no mention of an immortal part of man departing to live on after death in a different realm....
In fact God went on to say...“Behold, the man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil; and now, he might reach out with his hand, and take fruit also from the tree of life, and eat, and live forever”— 23 therefore the Lord God sent him out of the Garden of Eden, to cultivate the ground from which he was taken. 24 So He drove the man out; and at the east of the Garden of Eden He stationed the cherubim and the flaming sword which turned every direction to guard the way to the tree of life."
God went to great lengths to ensure that there was no everlasting life possible for those who sin. Death was the penalty and it was the cessation of life. (Ecclesiastes 9:5, 10)
So logically, if there is nothing inside man that survives death, then NDE's obviously have another explanation.
In a weakened state, who would take advantage of a person's vulnerability?
In the video you posted, what year was this? 1943? The man was in the military.....somewhere no genuine Christian would ever be. (based on Matthew 5:43-44) He was American, so in that time most people would have identified as "Christian". Was there any sophisticated medical equipment to test brain death at that time? And I wonder how long it was between when the man "died" and when he revived? We all know that a human brain cannot survive long without oxygen, otherwise irreversible brain damage will occur. He was not brain damaged, so his brain was not without oxygen for very long. His outcome does not match his "experience".
What else can we explain about NDE's that fit satan's MO? What about that brilliant light that is invariably mentioned?
2 Corinthians 11:14-15...
"No wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light. 15 Therefore it is not surprising if his servants also disguise themselves as servants of righteousness, whose end will be according to their deeds."
Here we have a description of satan as "an angel of light"...a fake light that is designed to deceive, mimicking the "light" that was to come from Jesus Christ.
What about the feeling of an "out of body experience"? Don't we have the apostle Paul's experiences that were given to him by Jesus? Did he travel outside of his body? Or was it a vision given to him inside his own mind that felt like he had left and gone somewhere else? Don't we do that ourselves in our dreams?
And lastly that review of life memories, flashing before their eyes.....who has been around since the beginning and knows everything about everyone? We should never underestimate the deceptive power of our common enemy.
A deceived person does not recognize the deception until it is either pointed out to them, or the results come crashing down on them when it is too late.
Some who have NDE's have nothing but a nightmare, and were glad to 'wake up'. Others have no experience at all.
Christians don't like NDE's because what the vast majority of people who have had them say severely contradicts Christian dogma. No doubt this is why you vehemently dislike them. Millions of people ranging from Christians to Hindus to Buddhists to atheists who have had them say that there is no judgmental people-hating deity waiting to fry them, just a benevolent loving entity who welcomes everyone into the afterlife.
SeekingAllTruth
Well-Known Member
True enough.
You'll find me on both sides of the arguments, arguing both for and against the same things. This is because I see problems in the logic of both sides.
You now ask me to bare my soul about my own beliefs (seldom shared).
I come from a scientific background....I must have proof before I believe. This likely means that I should be an agnostic (I can't say that I don't believe, because there is no proof that there is no God). However, there is one sticking point that prevents me from being an agnostic, and that is ESP (Extrasensory Perception)....psychic phenomena.
I realize that my belief in ESP is less accepted than theism. Also, it is certainly not what a skeptic or scientist should believe. Why, then, do I so fervently believe in it?
I believe in ESP, because it is true, and it has been demonstrated to me on numerous occasions. The things that I have seen absolutely defy logic and known laws of physics. Therefore, as strongly as I believe in physics, I must abandon at least some of those beliefs in order to accommodate my belief in ESP. (People will treat me like a fool for believing as I do).
When I hear a prediction from a real psychic, and that prediction comes true in its entirety, I have no choice but to believe in ESP. When they are right every time, over and over and over again, I realize that it is not a coincidence, but a reality.
Then I argue that if there is information stored in the space around us, and organized in some way that the human mind can tap into it and understand it, isn't that the same as a giant brain? Couldn't some eternal creature use that as a brain? Could that be the brain of God? Could the creature that commands that kind of energy do things with its mind? Maybe move things? (telekinesis) Maybe make things? Maybe transport things? Maybe appear in different locations? Maybe that is the power of God.
If I believe in some pseudoscience, such as ESP, why not believe in God? Consider that a vast number of famous psychics, such as Edgar Cayce, believed in God as well as being psychic. If Cayce could sense God (or spirits), perhaps God and the spirit world is real?
While the belief system of others is based on faith (belief without proof), mine is based on hard proof. My beliefs are solid, though there are many who have not (and probably cannot) share my experiences.
However, for those who are open to trying to experience ESP, you might see what I mean.
However, there are some theists who think that dabbling with ESP is dabbling in the dark arts. Yet, ESP was very much a part of the bible. Revelation was said to be the psychic vision of St. John the Divine. This has been accepted by most as part of the bible.
Even the bible, itself, was not written until centuries after the apostles died. So, the only way that the author of the bible would know about the thinking of the apostles is by word of mouth, or something written, or divine ESP from God.
I could have sworn that my sister was waiting in hell. But you say that there is no judgemental people-hating deity waiting to fry me. Maybe I'm going to a different place? Also, I wouldn't call her a deity.
SeekingAllTruth
Well-Known Member
I don't say. Millions of people who have had NDE's say, not counting a handful of radical fundamentalists, notably Bill Weiss who post videos like this nonsense. naturally he's selling books:
rational experiences
Veteran Member
Man lives only.
A deceased man is defined by being deceased without argument. If he was believed to be deceased then he never was deceased if he was still alive.
Term word deceased owns exact meaning. Deceased means dead and can never mean any other term.
Jesus in science meaning deceased is a non alight spirit gas.
The earth stone as a tomb naturally owns non alight not alive burning gases as stone only is cold as the tomb or entombed spirits. In science a deceased spirit is non burning. Gases.
Reasons using reasoning without coercing.
A deceased man is defined by being deceased without argument. If he was believed to be deceased then he never was deceased if he was still alive.
Term word deceased owns exact meaning. Deceased means dead and can never mean any other term.
Jesus in science meaning deceased is a non alight spirit gas.
The earth stone as a tomb naturally owns non alight not alive burning gases as stone only is cold as the tomb or entombed spirits. In science a deceased spirit is non burning. Gases.
Reasons using reasoning without coercing.
But what if that "benevolent loving entity" is a clever fraud? What if the love is faked, just like the light? Its all about what we choose to believe, and why we want to believe it...if you want God to go away or to turn into something you want him to be, the 'pretend god' will accommodate you...giving you just what you want. Why do you think he caters to all religious tastes?
If you want to believe the lies, God won't stop you. You choose the god you want to serve by your words and actions.
Nuff said....
Wandering Monk
Well-Known Member
I certainly don't expect actual empirical truths, that's for certain.
Subduction Zone
Veteran Member
You are only describing theists there. How many times have I asked you for a proper test for your beliefs and you never could find one.
Also many of the "atheist" scholars were Christians when they began their studies. The truth set them free.
joelr
Well-Known Member
Of course they do, why would Justin Marytr say that if they were not similar? Your answer is a made up demon originally taken from the Persian religion created a fake history to fool Christians. Ha. That's Jehovas Witness level fiction.
"During the Second Temple Period, when Jews were living in the Achaemenid Empire, Judaism was heavily influenced by Zoroastrianism, the religion of the Achaemenids.[27][8][28] Jewish conceptions of Satan were impacted by Angra Mainyu,[8][29] the Zoroastrian god of evil, darkness, and ignorance.
The idea of Satan as an opponent of God and a purely evil figure seems to have taken root in Jewish pseudepigrapha during the Second Temple Period,["
joelr
Well-Known Member
“Pliny the Younger mentions Jesus”
Only as a deity some people worshiped. He says nothing that places him in earth history as a man.
“Ignatius of Antioch writes on Jesus’s existence”
Using only Gospels as his source. And nearly a century after the fact. Therefore, useless
At 40:46 Lloyd reads a JW manual explaining how many historians mentioned Jesus.
Jesus specialist Carrier goes over this and explains all of these examples are historians mentioning that there are Christians who follow the gospels.
None of this is evidence for any supernatural events in the 1st century. The earliest historian mentioned began his writing in the 2nd century. Nothing confirms an actual Jesus, just Christians who believe in gospels.
ESP is another topic that is good to explore from the biblical perspective....
Well, its a trick actually.....all forms of spiritism were forbidden under God's law...and that included "foretellers of events"...psychics, or fortune tellers. There was a reason for that. The source of their powers of prediction was not from God.
"There shall not be found among you anyone who makes his son or his daughter pass through the fire, one who uses divination, a soothsayer, one who interprets omens, or a sorcerer, 11 or one who casts a spell, or a medium, or a spiritist, or one who consults the dead. 12 For whoever does these things is detestable to the Lord; and because of these detestable things the Lord your God is going to drive them out before you." (Deuteronomy 19:9-12)
These were the practices of the Canaanites whom God evicted from the Promised Land. King Saul was commanded to clear all the clairvoyants out of the land. So think again about those with psychic abilities....
The account in Acts 16:16-18 is interesting...
"Now it happened that as we were going to the place of prayer, a servant girl with a spirit, a demon of divination, met us. She supplied her masters with much profit by fortune-telling. 17 This girl kept following Paul and us and crying out with the words: “These men are slaves of the Most High God and are proclaiming to you the way of salvation.” 18 She kept doing this for many days. Finally Paul got tired of it and turned and said to the spirit: “I order you in the name of Jesus Christ to come out of her.” And it came out that very hour."
What was the source of her ability to predict the future? It was demonic. And she actually identified the apostles as "slaves of the Most High God proclaiming the way of salvation" so why did the apostles tire of her proclamation, if the demon was actually telling the truth? Because they did not want to be identified by the devil's cronies, so Paul ordered it to come out of her, in the name of Jesus Christ, and it obeyed....at the name of the one who will ultimately incarcerate them in the abyss. (Luke 8:27-34)
Its not as "hard" as you imagine...it is a deception. The demons know everything about everyone, and have been around way longer than we have. They know what works to deceive humans because they have been doing it for thousands of years.....human nature does not change.
If they make a prediction through their human channels, they have the power to make them come true.
Getting a Revelation from God about the future is prophesy, not ESP. God's prophets received information by means of God's spirit...that is not what you are talking about....that information is coming straight from the devil and his henchmen...it is deceptive, not ever beneficial.
No, I'm sorry, that is not correct. The Catholic church simply compiled the books and letters that were already written and in circulation. God chose the contents. How could the apostles write after they died? The contributions making up scripture were written before the end of the first century. The last apostle John, died not long after he wrote the Revelation and his last three letters.
After that "apostolic" period ended, the restraining influence of the apostles was no longer there, so the "weeds" foretold by Jesus (who were snapping at the heels of the apostles towards the end of the first century) flourished, and by the beginning of the second century, they took Christianity into apostasy just as Jesus and the apostles had predicted. (Matthew 13:24-30; 2 Thessalonians 2:3; 1 Tim 4:1-3; Luke 6:46; Acts 20:30; 2 Peter 2:1-3) What happened to Judaism was happening again...
Any wonder that "few" are on the road to life. (Matthew 7:13-14)
What faith would you have? If Jesus never rose from the dead, then the cross never happened. You would still be lost and in your sins ,heading for hell according to the bible.