What ONE critical piece of information made you decide to believe or disbelieve Jesus rose?

[John1.12]

Wrong. The Quran is more upsetting. In both cases it's not the myths but because people still sometimes don't realize they are myths.

So everyone's stupid, but you ?

 

[SeekingAllTruth]

But if its all myths ,who cares right ?

Eh, who knows? (shrug)

 

[nPeace]

Exactly true for religious people. My only interest in what is true.


First of all here is an excellent example of you ignoring facts and bending them to your beliefs.
Demonstrating the possible historicity of Jesus means there was a man who was a Rabbi and later mythicized as a dying/rising demigod. Even if Jesus were a person none of this gives any proof to the idea that this one religion was true while all the other stories of resurrecting Gods were false.
The only historian that you mention is speaking of the execution in Tacitus. Historian Richard Carrier wrote a paper published in Vigiliae Christianae demonstrating that it's likely the single line about "Christ" was added in the 4th century.
Willem J. C. Blom then wrote a response titled “Why the Testimonium Taciteum Is Authentic: A Response to Carrier”
and Carrier answered all his criticisms here:

Blom on the Testimonium Taciteum • Richard Carrier
He covers Suetonius and Tacitus.

This compiled evidence raises serious doubts that the Tacitus passage is authentic.

We already know Christianity originates and members were persecuted. As to this specific persecution there is doubt.
Your ridiculous leap of logic that this means all the supernatural stories are true shows the only person bias towards their own beliefs here is you. You are skimming over articles and assuming the information is true.

Blom did not address Carriers' main points which still stand:

"
I make four main arguments for my conclusion: (A) no Christian accounts of the Neronian persecution mention “a large multitude” being killed, or any proximity to the fire of Rome, or being blamed for it, yet Christians should know their own history better than Tacitus would (in other words, it’s not in any of the Neronian martyrdom texts we have); (B) there is in fact a complete absence of any martyrdom tradition resulting from that event for almost three hundred years, when it appears obliquely in the fourth century in the forged correspondence between Seneca and Paul, which actually says Jews and Christians were persecuted for the fire (evincing knowledge of Tacitus mentioning Jews, and then forging a new addition of Christians being swept up with them); (C) before that forgery, even Christian authors who read and used Tacitus (from Tertullian to Lactantius) had never heard of anything Tacitus relates in this passage, and never mention it, in fact so far as we can tell no Christian or non-Christian author had ever heard of it until that forged fourth century correspondence invented it; and, finally, (D) Tacitus’s account makes more sense as a persecution of Chrestians than of Christians (which I already touched on above).

Three of these are arguments from silence: Christian accounts we have don’t mention it; we have no Christian accounts that mention it until the forgery of a “Jews and Christians” story in the fourth century; and even Christian apologists who had read and employed Tacitus and wrote about the Neronian persecution don’t mention it (likewise any other author, Christian or otherwise). Together that’s a pretty devastating argument against any mention of Christians, rather than simply Jews (the Chrestian agitators), having been in Tacitus, until that starts to appear in the late fourth century, after the notion was invented in a Christian-forged letter from Seneca that appears to have been inspired by the original account in Tacitus that blamed Jews."

nPeace writes... It's possible that we are air balloons on a planet called Gas, and the Gas inhabitant children are kicking us silly/
There, I said it, so it must be true.
Who is Richard Carrier anyway? God?

 

[joelr]

So everyone's stupid, but you ?

Putting words in my mouth.
When I was Christian I do not think it was because of stupidity but indoctrination. I have believed many things true because others did and I wanted them to be true as well. But upon honest research they did not hold up.

 

[joelr]

nPeace writes... It's possible that we are air balloons on a planet called Gas, and the Gas inhabitant children are kicking us silly/
There, I said it, so it must be true.

The irony here is you are actually making a claim that the Bible is true because it says so.
I never implied that saying something means it's true. I'm saying it's about evaluating evidence regardless of what we want to be true.

Who is Richard Carrier anyway? God?

He is one scholar. He presents evidence that can be examined by anyone. He happens to have applied his degree to Jesus historicity. Most of the information put forward by him is just work by other scholars in the related fields.
He is a historian however, not a theologian. He does not have to approach the material as a believer but is free to make up his own mind.
Everything he says can be sourced, some of his work inspired theological types to write papers arguing against some of his work. But so far he has answered rebuttals with evidence and sound arguments. The debates with historians he has are good.
The apologists just come at him with the same psudeo-science that is circular or faith based reasoning and could be used to promote any religion.

 

[John1.12]

Putting words in my mouth.
When I was Christian I do not think it was because of stupidity but indoctrination. I have believed many things true because others did and I wanted them to be true as well. But upon honest research they did not hold up.

So you were deluded?

 

[joelr]

So you were deluded?

The evidence demonstrates I was holding false beliefs yes.

 

[John1.12]

The evidence demonstrates I was holding false beliefs yes.

Yes many are deluded. The ones who are saved ,its different .

 

[joelr]

Yes many are deluded. The ones who are saved ,its different .

Then demonstrate it. With evidence, not myths.

Being "saved" is part of the mythology of the religion. You are condemned but there is a demigod who saves you. That is a feature of savior God mythology. It's a Hellenistic idea adapted by all the religions in the Middle East during the bronze and iron age.

When presented with evidence you hid your head, waited for a chance, then began preaching. Classic indoctrinated behavior.

 

[John1.12]

Then demonstrate it. With evidence, not myths.

Being "saved" is part of the mythology of the religion. You are condemned but there is a demigod who saves you. That is a feature of savior God mythology. It's a Hellenistic idea adapted by all the religions in the Middle East during the bronze and iron age.

When presented with evidence you hid your head, waited for a chance, then began preaching. Classic indoctrinated behavior.

If it was as you say then yes I would be an idiot for believing. No Christian, who is saved believes the stuff you and others believe. What you believe doesn't line up with the bible .

 

[joelr]

If it was as you say then yes I would be an idiot for believing. No Christian, who is saved believes the stuff you and others believe. What you believe doesn't line up with the bible .

I didn't say anyone was an idiot?

I don't understand why you basically just made the statement "No Christian is not a Christian"?
If one believes the doctrine of a religion then they are a member of that religion? I understand the infighting among Christians and the sects who think they are special by virtue of saying "I am saved" vs the sects who do not feel they need to proclaim the phrase over and over. Either way you are buying into stories the same way Mormons, Islam, Scientology and so on does.

Unfortunately you have proven my point with that circular logic anyways. Saying something doesn't "line up" with the Bible therefore it cannot be true is cult-like indoctrination. Inability to question a source, especially one with no evidence and clear proof of borrowed stories from other myths and refusal to evaluate evidence is even more.
There is zero evidence the Bible or any other religion is true.

 

[John1.12]

I didn't say anyone was an idiot?

I don't understand why you basically just made the statement "No Christian is not a Christian"?
If one believes the doctrine of a religion then they are a member of that religion? I understand the infighting among Christians and the sects who think they are special by virtue of saying "I am saved" vs the sects who do not feel they need to proclaim the phrase over and over. Either way you are buying into stories the same way Mormons, Islam, Scientology and so on does.

Unfortunately you have proven my point with that circular logic anyways. Saying something doesn't "line up" with the Bible therefore it cannot be true is cult-like indoctrination. Inability to question a source, especially one with no evidence and clear proof of borrowed stories from other myths and refusal to evaluate evidence is even more.
There is zero evidence the Bible or any other religion is true.

//If one believes the doctrine of a religion then they are a member of that religion?// No this does not make you saved .

 

[John1.12]

I didn't say anyone was an idiot?

I don't understand why you basically just made the statement "No Christian is not a Christian"?
If one believes the doctrine of a religion then they are a member of that religion? I understand the infighting among Christians and the sects who think they are special by virtue of saying "I am saved" vs the sects who do not feel they need to proclaim the phrase over and over. Either way you are buying into stories the same way Mormons, Islam, Scientology and so on does.

Unfortunately you have proven my point with that circular logic anyways. Saying something doesn't "line up" with the Bible therefore it cannot be true is cult-like indoctrination. Inability to question a source, especially one with no evidence and clear proof of borrowed stories from other myths and refusal to evaluate evidence is even more.
There is zero evidence the Bible or any other religion is true.

Again if my beliefs lined up with your beliefs then I would be an idiot to believe .Your beliefs i assume were a result of what you looked into, are a unfortunate result. I don't know what led to your unfortunate conclusions, but that's what free will allows .

 

[John1.12]

I didn't say anyone was an idiot?

I don't understand why you basically just made the statement "No Christian is not a Christian"?
If one believes the doctrine of a religion then they are a member of that religion? I understand the infighting among Christians and the sects who think they are special by virtue of saying "I am saved" vs the sects who do not feel they need to proclaim the phrase over and over. Either way you are buying into stories the same way Mormons, Islam, Scientology and so on does.

Unfortunately you have proven my point with that circular logic anyways. Saying something doesn't "line up" with the Bible therefore it cannot be true is cult-like indoctrination. Inability to question a source, especially one with no evidence and clear proof of borrowed stories from other myths and refusal to evaluate evidence is even more.
There is zero evidence the Bible or any other religion is true.

//infighting// Again we have free will . Our minds are not all the same . Essentially most Christians agree on the essentials .

 

[joelr]

//If one believes the doctrine of a religion then they are a member of that religion?// No this does not make you saved .

I do not care which side of the salvation by faith/works you are on. There is no such thing as "saved" it is a belief. Some Christians believe it's by faith or works or both or predestination, I do not care because scripture is made up by people.
The concept of heaven is not even a Jewish belief. Souls that begin and return to heaven were not in Judaism for almost 700 years until they adopted Hellenistic ideas about afterlife.
In later centuries Agustine and all sorts of Christian theologians came up with other ideas about what scripture means as well.

Don't care.


During the period of the Second Temple (c. 515 BC – 70 AD), the Hebrew people lived under the rule of first the Persian Achaemenid Empire, then the Greek kingdoms of the Diadochi, and finally the Roman Empire.[48] Their culture was profoundly influenced by those of the peoples who ruled them.[48] Consequently, their views on existence after death were profoundly shaped by the ideas of the Persians, Greeks, and Romans.[49][50] The idea of the immortality of the soul is derived from Greek philosophy[50] and the idea of the resurrection of the dead is derived from Persian cosmology.[50] By the early first century AD, these two seemingly incompatible ideas were often conflated by Hebrew thinkers.[50] The Hebrews also inherited from the Persians, Greeks, and Romans the idea that the human soul originates in the divine realm and seeks to return there.[48] The idea that a human soul belongs in Heaven and that Earth is merely a temporary abode in which the soul is tested to prove its worthiness became increasingly popular during the Hellenistic period (323 – 31 BC).[40] Gradually, some Hebrews began to adopt the idea of Heaven as the eternal home of the righteous dead.[40]

 

[joelr]

Again if my beliefs lined up with your beliefs then I would be an idiot to believe .Your beliefs i assume were a result of what you looked into, are a unfortunate result. I don't know what led to your unfortunate conclusions, but that's what free will allows .

Then demonstrate, with evidence, why realizing a religion is mythology is "unfortunate"? All you are doing is preaching. This conversation plays out 1000 times in some form. Present evidence, believer ignores evidence, ask for evidence, believer cannot but instead begins to preach beliefs.

Interesting how you frame scholarship into "looked into". As if understanding the truth about the world around you is a bad thing? You are practically admitting you know these are false beliefs but people should just continue for some reason?

 

[John1.12]

I do not care which side of the salvation by faith/works you are on. There is no such thing as "saved" it is a belief. Some Christians believe it's by faith or works or both or predestination, I do not care because scripture is made up by people.
The concept of heaven is not even a Jewish belief. Souls that begin and return to heaven were not in Judaism for almost 700 years until they adopted Hellenistic ideas about afterlife.
In later centuries Agustine and all sorts of Christian theologians came up with other ideas about what scripture means as well.

Don't care.


During the period of the Second Temple (c. 515 BC – 70 AD), the Hebrew people lived under the rule of first the Persian Achaemenid Empire, then the Greek kingdoms of the Diadochi, and finally the Roman Empire.[48] Their culture was profoundly influenced by those of the peoples who ruled them.[48] Consequently, their views on existence after death were profoundly shaped by the ideas of the Persians, Greeks, and Romans.[49][50] The idea of the immortality of the soul is derived from Greek philosophy[50] and the idea of the resurrection of the dead is derived from Persian cosmology.[50] By the early first century AD, these two seemingly incompatible ideas were often conflated by Hebrew thinkers.[50] The Hebrews also inherited from the Persians, Greeks, and Romans the idea that the human soul originates in the divine realm and seeks to return there.[48] The idea that a human soul belongs in Heaven and that Earth is merely a temporary abode in which the soul is tested to prove its worthiness became increasingly popular during the Hellenistic period (323 – 31 BC).[40] Gradually, some Hebrews began to adopt the idea of Heaven as the eternal home of the righteous dead.[40]

Like i said If I added all this 'junk 'you believe onto the bible , of course I would be a moron for believing. With all this 'stuff 'you believe, I actually can understand why you be ridiculing those that belive .

 

[joelr]

//infighting// Again we have free will . Our minds are not all the same . Essentially most Christians agree on the essentials .

You are 100% wrong. I have met and spoke with Christians from all over the world. The amount that are in the "are you saved" cult is comparatively very small. The born again, Baptist types are by far the minority.

Christians do not agree on the essential either because before the law stepped in Catholics and Protestants were burning each other alive for centuries. You might look into the history of Christianity?

 

[joelr]

Like i said If I added all this 'junk 'you believe onto the bible , of course I would be a moron for believing. With all this 'stuff 'you believe, I actually can understand why you be ridiculing those that belive .

I have no idea what you are speaking of? Are you moving to denial of historical facts because they don't support your beliefs?
The evidence shows that heaven, resurrection and having a soul that goes to heaven is not a revelation to a Jewish prophet was was in fact taken from another culture.
You cannot admit this as true because it would demonstrate your religion is made up. I however can believe historical facts without this dilemma.
Is denial all you have? Calling decades of scholarship (Carrier's work) "wacky" and historical foundations to Christian mythology "junk" shows you are just jumping through hoops to protect your beliefs.
This is confirming what I have been saying.

 

[John1.12]

You are 100% wrong. I have met and spoke with Christians from all over the world. The amount that are in the "are you saved" cult is comparatively very small. The born again, Baptist types are by far the minority.

Christians do not agree on the essential either because before the law stepped in Catholics and Protestants were burning each other alive for centuries. You might look into the history of Christianity?

Matthew 7
13¶Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:

14Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.