What Orthodox Judaism Really Believes

[Flankerl]

Believe it or not but i know that the Mishna is important.

Yes Gehinom. The place no one really knows what it could be and whose interpretation changed of the years again and again.
No Sage as wise as he or she may be can tell me what comes after death. Except if HaShem told him so which would make him or her a Prophet and not a Sage.

Iam sorry but when someone says to me that he knows that this or that happens after death i call it bollocks.

 

[Yanni]

Believe it or not but i know that the Mishna is important.

Yes Gehinom. The place no one really knows what it could be and whose interpretation changed of the years again and again.
No Sage as wise as he or she may be can tell me what comes after death. Except if HaShem told him so which would make him or her a Prophet and not a Sage.

Iam sorry but when someone says to me that he knows that this or that happens after death i call it bollocks.

Have you ever heard of the Zohar? The Zohar is steeped in Kabbalah (in extreme mystical thought). We actually call him the Zohar HaKadosh (the Holy Zohar). Everything the Zohar says is written with so called "Divine Inspiration," which in Hebrew is "Ruach HaKodesh." Ruach HaKodesh is the closest thing we have to Nevuah (prophecy) and it's pretty close. He knows a lot more than you or I will ever know about what comes after death; and yes, he does describe certain aspects of death. So, do your research and see what you can find.

 

[Rakhel]

Yanni,

This is not a contest to see who can urinate the farthest.

 

[Yanni]

Yanni,

This is not a contest to see who can urinate the farthest.

I'm sorry, Rakhel, but I don't know what that means.

 

[Rakhel]

I don't think Judaism, Orthodox or not, is supposed to be about who is the better Jew. We are supposed to be above that. There is a difference in being proud and being prideful.

 

[Rakhel]

"First Jewish divorces in history?"

Where did you get that nonsense? Gets have been around for cneturies.

 

[Levite]

*Post Deleted*

Aside from the fact that this is radically and offensively incorrect, what does it have to do with Orthodoxy in specific? It seems equally incorrect regarding all movements of Judaism, both modern and historical.

 

[dantech]

Hello,
I am also an orthodox Jew. And would like to attempt to answer a few questions I have seen.

One member asked about those people that absolutely have to focus on something when they pray.
Well, It is okay to focus on something as long as that thing represents a real "tunnel" for our prayers to be accepted.

For example, many Rabbis will start their prayers by asking for the merits of a certain rabbi to help our prayers go through.
If you need something physical, alot of Hassidic synagogs have pictures of The Lubavitch Rebbe. Sepharadic Synagogs often have paintings of Baba Sale. These are People who have proven that they are in no way trying to be divine, but instead are putting all their efforts at being the best possible servant to divinity.

Also by praying in a temple, you can focus on an actual Torah Scroll which is like thinking "This thing in front of me, this is what the most powerful and all-knowing force gave me as a present!"



Flankerl, you said something like this:" How could they pretend they know what comes after death if they have never been in Gehinom?"

Well these same Sages who did describe what awaits in the after life have described many things that they couldn't have possibly seen with their eyes in that time period, but which have been proven recently.

One example is the following : They mention that they need to operate on a fellow Rabbi who was in pain. So they describe that they are going to perform the operation in a room that has been cleaned extensively with a marble table and marble floors, for simple reason that they don't want to expose the opening to germs. How could they have possibly known about germs in that time period without microscopes?

Another example: In one gemara, they mention the exact angle in which the planet is inclined is space. Up to the 28th decimal... until about 50 years ago, the number science had discovered was not identical to ours. But then a German Scientist developped the tools necessary to calculate this angle and ended up finding the exact same number as us.
By the way, in that same gemara, they talk about how the world is round, how it turns on itself while rotating around the sun. It talks about gravity by saying the following:
The world is a sphere. creatures standing on top and creatures standing on the bottom, but they don't fall off.

Anyways, I am not trying to "brainwash" anyone. Just trying to answer your questions with some very basic knowledge i have been able to acquire. For fuller answers, i suggest you go see an Orthodox Rabbi. He will be able to give you exact quotes, and more perfect answers.

 

[Flankerl]

hoi

For example, many Rabbis will start their prayers by asking for the merits of a certain rabbi to help our prayers go through.

I dont need the merit of a Rabbi to get a connection to HaShem.

If you need something physical, alot of Hassidic synagogs have pictures of The Lubavitch Rebbe. Sepharadic Synagogs often have paintings of Baba Sale. These are People who have proven that they are in no way trying to be divine, but instead are putting all their efforts at being the best possible servant to divinity.

I wouldnt even accept pictures of Moshe Rabeinu there. Even he was just a human being with his flaws.
This is the place to worship HaShem and only HaShem. If someone wants to look at some nice pictures of people he or she can visit an orthodox or catholic church.

And the Lubavitcher Rebbe? Him? Still waiting for that resurrection.

Flankerl, you said something like this:" How could they pretend they know what comes after death if they have never been in Gehinom?"

Well these same Sages who did describe what awaits in the after life have described many things that they couldn't have possibly seen with their eyes in that time period, but which have been proven recently.

One example is the following : They mention that they need to operate on a fellow Rabbi who was in pain. So they describe that they are going to perform the operation in a room that has been cleaned extensively with a marble table and marble floors, for simple reason that they don't want to expose the opening to germs. How could they have possibly known about germs in that time period without microscopes?

Well the Indians(2600 years ago) theorised about the existence about bacteria and so did the Romans(20?? years ago).

And the knowledge that a dirty wound is bad business is even older than the oldest cities.

Another example: In one gemara, they mention the exact angle in which the planet is inclined is space. Up to the 28th decimal... until about 50 years ago, the number science had discovered was not identical to ours. But then a German Scientist developped the tools necessary to calculate this angle and ended up finding the exact same number as us.

Dont believe it until I read it. Especially since the obliquity of earth always changes and has changed since the time of the sages.

By the way, in that same gemara, they talk about how the world is round, how it turns on itself while rotating around the sun. It talks about gravity by saying the following:
The world is a sphere. creatures standing on top and creatures standing on the bottom, but they don't fall off.

But thats nothing special. No one except the poor dumb farmer questioned that since the hellenistic antiquity. At least in roughly the area of the roman and parthian empire, so basically the hellenistic world. I think roughly the same age for India.
If i remember right it was Aristotle for the hellenistic world. Or was it Pythagoras... its been some time since my last physics class.

 

[Harmonious]

I dont need the merit of a Rabbi to get a connection to HaShem.

I wouldnt even accept pictures of Moshe Rabeinu there. Even he was just a human being with his flaws.

I hear that, and I agree with it. I guess the idea, or as I think of it, is that the pictures aren't so much as a focus, as much as a moment of "because I'm thinking of the guy in the picture, can I ask You, Hashem, to include some of his merit when considering my supplication?"

I'm not sure I understand this or agree with it, but that is the only reason I can think of why it is so important to daven in places like Me'arat Hamachpela (Cave of the Patriarchs).

The concept of Hell is an interesting one. I didn't believe in it myself until it was pointed out to me that there is a fairly impressive story in the Agadita in the Talmud in Gittin (I think it's on 57a, but I don't know for certain) that refers to an eternal torment for people who tried very hard to eradicate all of Jewry, or the legacy of their memory involved people acting in that fashion.

Particularly featured in that story are Nebuchadnezzar, Titus, and Jesus. I do understand that the important part of the story to remember was that it was far better for Onkelos to become a Jew than to attempt to defeat us.

That being said, and with the understanding that we are never really sure which Agadita we are supposed to believe as absolute truth and which we are supposed to believe as a lesson, I wouldn't dismiss the story out of hand, even if you don't believe in it completely.

But another thing to think of... There is no physicality in the World to Come. So all of this "torment of Hell" isn't necessarily simply that.

The World to Come is also called "Ha'olam Ha'emet", or the World of Truth. Perhaps, in during the time of his life, Nebuchadnezzar thought of amassing power and getting it by exiling the Jews, destroying the Temple, and whatever cruelty he performed so doing was for the glory of Babylon. Or something.

Once he got to the World of Truth, and he saw God's judgment, and saw how valued the Jews were and what he personally did and commanded to be done... He was so embarrassed that he could not see fit to forgive himself and face God. So the rather graphic description of him in that story in Gittin wasn't literal, but there was no way he could reconcile his doings with God.

While it might have happened, or it might not have happened, it isn't impossible to believe that people like Chelminicky or Hitler might have difficulty reconciling their differences with what they did in life to what God actually wanted in the grand scheme of things.

Is it a permanent punishment? We don't know. But we have that Agadita, so I'm not closed to the idea.

 

[Harmonious]

why would you expect prayer at that location to be "much more special and pleasing to God"?

I would suggest that it would be much more special and pleasing to God because that is where God specifically stopped a plague around there, which was brought about when King David made an unauthorized census.

King David recognized the specialness of the place and bought the silo of Aravna the Jebusite.

After King Solomon built the Temple, we aren't permitted to offer sacrifices anywhere else. In Chumash, it mentioned that there will be a place that is "a place of God's choosing."

It's also one of the last lines in Dayenu in the Hagada.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

The concept of Hell is an interesting one. I didn't believe in it myself until it was pointed out to me that there is a fairly impressive story in the Agadita in the Talmud in Gittin (I think it's on 57a, but I don't know for certain) that refers to an eternal torment for people who tried very hard to eradicate all of Jewry, or the legacy of their memory involved people acting in that fashion.

I'm curious as to why such a reference would lead you to believe in Hell.

 

[Harmonious]

I can understand what you mean here. However, what about for those who cannot do that? I have met my fair share of people who feel they have to have something to focus on. In such a case where they only feel able to connect with God if they have something to focus on, would that be their own undoing?

I've been told that Noachides should focus on the Rainbow. It is something that seriously represents God's connection with Noah, or in fact, all of humanity.

But then again, it isn't the main focus, but it is something to help people keep their minds on their relationship with God. If it's necessary.

 

[Harmonious]

I'm curious as to why such a reference would lead you to believe in Hell.

It isn't "Hell", per se, as I don't believe that there are "places" in the World to Come, as such.

It is a state of permanent torment, not a place. Or, more likely, a state of permanent agitation for what one has done. God might have forgiven them long ago, even if they haven't forgiven themselves. I thought I explained why I thought this was possible.

It's not something that just anyone can fall into because they believed the wrong things, or fell to temptation one too many times. They would really have to work at it in order to earn something like this.

And as I've said, I'm not certain that I believe it, but I'm not closed to the idea that such a thing could happen.

 

[dantech]

hoi




I dont need the merit of a Rabbi to get a connection to HaShem.


This sentence right here shows just how little you know of how difficult it is for us to pray appropriately. Asking for the merits of our Rabbis to help our prayer get through is not a weakness as you make it seem, it is the opposite. It is adding power to your words.

I wouldnt even accept pictures of Moshe Rabeinu there. Even he was just a human being with his flaws.

This is absurd! Obviously he was just a human being. But you make him seem like a simple little farmer. Moshe Rabeinu was the leader of all generations. Up to this day there hasn't been a man that has achieved half of what he has achieved. If it wasn't for Moshe Rabeinu "negotiating" with Hashem, we would not have been here today. So if you ever do have the possibility of having your prayers be routed by him, take it! and don't say things like that. Do you realize Moshe Rabeinu was actually burried by G-D himself? This is because no man had the power to send such a pure being back to G-D... underestimating or disrespecting him in any way is an abomination.

This is the place to worship HaShem and only HaShem. If someone wants to look at some nice pictures of people he or she can visit an orthodox or catholic church.

You are 100% right that this is a place to worship Hashem and only Hashem. However, you don't realize that in almost all our prayers we mention our sages, ancestors or Rabbis. In the Amida, we mention Abraham, Isaac, and yaacov.

When the Rabbi blesses someone after an aliya to the sefer torah, he mentions these names as well, and some Rabbis mention other Rabbis (In the name of Rabbi Akiva, Of Rebbi Meir Baal HaNess, etc...)
This does not mean we worship these people in any way. All it means is we are greatfull of all the teachings that they passed on to us. and we realize how big their Neshamot are and how much effort they have put in their lives to serve Hashem, so please help my prayers get accepted... This is all we are doing by thinking of these people while praying.

And the Lubavitcher Rebbe? Him? Still waiting for that resurrection.
The Lubavitcher Rebbe has and still is bringing back thousands of Jews a day, in all the places you would think had been completely rid of Jews. Thanks to his doing, we find these valuable neshamot and bring them back to the right path every day. Your words are very insulting to many and I am trying to figure out if you are truely an orthodox Jew. Because any Orthodox Jew with respect to his heritage wouldn't speak like you do.



Well the Indians(2600 years ago) theorised about the existence about bacteria and so did the Romans(20?? years ago).

And the knowledge that a dirty wound is bad business is even older than the oldest cities.
We are not talking about dirty wounds. They mention actual "invisible to the human eye, dangerous creatures"



Dont believe it until I read it. Especially since the obliquity of earth always changes and has changed since the time of the sages.


Then go read it...

But thats nothing special. No one except the poor dumb farmer questioned that since the hellenistic antiquity. At least in roughly the area of the roman and parthian empire, so basically the hellenistic world. I think roughly the same age for India.
If i remember right it was Aristotle for the hellenistic world. Or was it Pythagoras... its been some time since my last physics class.

This was just one of many examples... Did you know that the one time in a human's life, during his whole life that his body heals the fastest from wounds is on the eighth day of his life? Geez, i wonder if that is just a coincidence.... We've been circumcising on the eighth day for thousands of years, and for thousands of years we knew why the eighth day as well. This is just another example. There are millions that I am simply not aware of.

You really should learn to respect the Prophets, Sages, Rabbis who have paved the way for you to be able to accomplish G-d's will as easily as it is done today.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

I'm curious as to why such a reference would lead you to believe in Hell.

It isn't "Hell", per se, as I don't believe that there are "places" in the World to Come, as such.

It is a state of permanent torment, not a place. Or, more likely, a state of permanent agitation for what one has done. God might have forgiven them long ago, even if they haven't forgiven themselves. I thought I explained why I thought this was possible.

I guess I'm still unclear as to why the reference effected the change. Was it simply because the reference asserted Hell or was it because the reference powerfully explicated a justification for it?

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

You really should learn to respect the Prophets, Sages, Rabbis who have paved the way for you to be able to accomplish G-d's will as easily as it is done today.

And you really should respect this forum. "Then go read it..." is, in my opinion, wholly unacceptable.

 

[dantech]

And you really should respect this forum. "Then go read it..." is, in my opinion, wholly unacceptable.

You are right, and I am sorry for that. I should be more respectful, and will indeed try to be from now on. It is just, that the way he/she was talking about these leaders really irritated me.

 

[Harmonious]

Look - we've seen this and done this before.

Yanni and dantech, listen.

I appreciate the fact that you are Orthdox Jews. You probably have done a lot of impressive learning. That is a beautiful thing.

Do NOT talk down to Jews who are not Orthodox. I'm not sure why you think this is a good idea.

People have come to their beliefs as they get there. The people who post here are not small children, they are not Apikorsim, and it bothers me tremendously that instead of teaching your thoughts (and acknowledging that they will either be accepted or rejected), you are being condescending.

Explain your thoughts. Explain your teachings. Explain your learning. And accept that maybe people aren't up to that yet. Or maybe they are and have their own reason for not incorporating it into their belief/value system.

 

[dantech]

Look - we've seen this and done this before.

Yanni and dantech, listen.

I appreciate the fact that you are Orthdox Jews. You probably have done a lot of impressive learning. That is a beautiful thing.

Do NOT talk down to Jews who are not Orthodox. I'm not sure why you think this is a good idea.

People have come to their beliefs as they get there. The people who post here are not small children, they are not Apikorsim, and it bothers me tremendously that instead of teaching your thoughts (and acknowledging that they will either be accepted or rejected), you are being condescending.

Explain your thoughts. Explain your teachings. Explain your learning. And accept that maybe people aren't up to that yet. Or maybe they are and have their own reason for not incorporating it into their belief/value system.

But I was under the impression that I was indeed talking to Orthodox Jews here... Am i not in the Orthodox section? It is misleading if the people in this forum are not Orthodox.