What proof would convince you God doesn't exist?

[TerranIV]

If you had a magic wand and could pretend for a moment it was possible God doesn't exist, what kind of proof could someone show you to convince you? Would an original Bible with the extra page at the end which says "By the way, I was just kidding - Moses"

My reason for asking this question is I want to put theism in a slightly stronger position than it currently is in my mind. I feel that if you, as a theist, can think of a possible (or impossible if you feel the laws of the universe are tied to the existence of God) way to disprove your position it makes it much stronger. If you can say, "I won't ever loose my belief in God until [blank] happens," then you strengthen your position as a logical one which you can defend.

I'm most interested in hearing ideas from theists about how they could prove God doesn't exist which don't necessarily have anything to do with science. I mean if you believe in miracles and the supernatural what about other supernatural ideas?

How about if Zeus came down off of Mt. Olympus and told everyone he was the real god and Jehovah was just a myth?
How about if the Devil killed God somehow - thus proving that God is not all powerful?
How about if you got a magic lamp and wished to be there when Moses got the ten commandments and you saw him chiseling them out himself?
How about if we found a magic potion to return everyone who is dead back to life and they all reported that Anubus was the ruler of the underworld?

I would really like to know what it would take for YOU to be convinced. What would prove it to YOU?

Also I wanted to say this is not an atheist trap. I'm not interesting in debating your reasons here, I am just curious if you can think of any.

 

[Storm]

Well, I'm not a theist, properly speaking. Am I welcome to participate?

 

[Caladan]

How about if we found a magic potion to return everyone who is dead back to life and they all reported that Anubus was the ruler of the underworld?

<

dont mind me! Im just doing a drive by correction here!

At some point Osiris was made the undisputed ruler of the Underworld!

 

[Storm]

Well, since you've logged off, I'm going to go ahead and answer.

If you had a magic wand and could pretend for a moment it was possible God doesn't exist,

Of course it's possible that God doesn't exist. I know many theists who would agree. That's where faith comes in.

what kind of proof could someone show you to convince you?

I personally believe that there's no objective proof either way. If it's out there, it's beyond my imagination.

There are a couple of things that might shake my certainty, though:
1) If neurotheology showed mystical experiences to be neurologically identical to hallucination, or some other malfunction. However, it shows the opposite: that such experiences are distinct.
2) If I were diagnosed as delusional... well, ok, that probably wouldn't shake my faith because I'd be delusional, but at least I tried.

My reason for asking this question is I want to put theism in a slightly stronger position than it currently is in my mind. I feel that if you, as a theist, can think of a possible (or impossible if you feel the laws of the universe are tied to the existence of God) way to disprove your position it makes it much stronger. If you can say, "I won't ever loose my belief in God until [blank] happens," then you strengthen your position as a logical one which you can defend.

I don't understand your reasoning.

How about if Zeus came down off of Mt. Olympus and told everyone he was the real god and Jehovah was just a myth?

In my theology, there are beings which we have historically mistaken for God. This would just be one of them making a bid for power.

How about if we found a magic potion to return everyone who is dead back to life and they all reported that Anubus was the ruler of the underworld?

Hmmm. I'd have to reconsider a few minor points of my theology, but it would largely be explained the same as the Zeus question.

I would really like to know what it would take for YOU to be convinced. What would prove it to YOU?

As I said, I can't imagine, but let me explain: I believe based on powerful personal experience. When I was quite young, I had an intense and transformative theophany, accompanied by what I can only consider a miracle healing. I do not claim faith in God, but knowledge. To convince me that God was not real, you'd baically have to convince me that I was insane.

Also I wanted to say this is not an atheist trap. I'm not interesting in debating your reasons here, I am just curious if you can think of any.

Well, I hope that doesn't prevent lively discussion.

 

[Guitar's Cry]

God for me is conceptual, and experience-based. "Proving" God's existence or non-existence has become irrelevant, because just the concept alone exhibits the necessary power to fulfill the requirements of "God."

 

[Halcyon]

I don't believe in God, I'm as convinced as I can be already by reason and alternative scientific explanations that there isn't one (or two, or seven). I honestly pondered your question for a while, but couldn't think of any logical "proof" that could be produced as evidence of God's non-existence, only alternative supernatural ones as you suggested.
So, I think the real question should be, what proof would convince us of the non-existence of the supernatural? Which, frankly, isn't something that concerns me as a non-believer as it is for the proponant of a theory to provide the supportive evidence.

 

[TerranIV]

Thank you for your response, Storm. I'm sorry I logged off before I could respond to your first post.

You asked what I mean when I say being able to prove it wrong makes theism have a stronger position in my mind. Things which can't be proven or disproved have very little power behind them. Why should anyone believe something you can't prove or disprove? There are many personal reasons, but no external ones. I am saying that if you can at least say "this disproves God" then at least you have a leg to stand on and a place to start a discussion. I would postulate that not being able to disprove a theory makes it hard to place it in any sort of reality.

In other words, you must have SOME sort of rules to start a discussion or anything you say will be devoid of meaning.

I like how you said

There are a couple of things that might shake my certainty, though:
1) If neurotheology showed mystical experiences to be neurologically identical to hallucination, or some other malfunction. However, it shows the opposite: that such experiences are distinct.
2) If I were diagnosed as delusional... well, ok, that probably wouldn't shake my faith because I'd be delusional, but at least I tried.

I feel the fact you are willing to take a realistic view of your experience makes your experience more real. Of course delusional people don't care about reality - but the fact you DO and you are in touch with reality enough to be able to at least imagine how you could be wrong.

Question to you - if there are beings who are making a bid to be God throughout the years, how would a person know the difference between a fake god and the real one?

 

[Luminous]

evidence never proves anything conclusively. The best that evidence can do is convince you that an assertion is reasonable and worth considering.
IOW: There is no proof. Once you have already decided, there is no way to "prove" you wrong.

 

[Storm]

Thank you for your response, Storm. I'm sorry I logged off before I could respond to your first post.

NP.

Question to you - if there are beings who are making a bid to be God throughout the years, how would a person know the difference between a fake god and the real one?

The fake ones care about being believed in, for starters.

 

[StudentOfGod]

I think most theists, who are theists by choice (as opposed to theists who were simply brought up that way and haven't questioned why they are theists) would be hard pressed to change their minds regardless of the proofs offered to them.

For example, if they've had some sort of personal experience that has absolutely convinced them of God's existence, whether it was a vivid hallucination or not, to believe that God didn't exist would call into question their own sanity. This is not something anybody wants to have to do, regardless of their beliefs.

This brings to mind David Hume's methodology for the identification of miracles:

"No testimony is sufficient to establish a miracle, unless the testimony be of such a kind, that its falsehood would be more miraculous than the fact which it endeavours to establish."

I wonder (and perhaps this is worthy of it's own thread), what would happen should science prove, undeniably, that there was no God. If science replaced religion as the go-to answer to all the mysteries of the universe, would there still be theists? Or is theism dependent upon the existence of the unexplained?

 

[Surprise Plastic Watermelons]

Does God exist? That might be the question here.

 

[McBell]

The fake ones care about being believed in, for starters.

Aahhh.
BUt what if the believing in them is what makes them real?
Meaning the more that believe the more real they become?

 

[Storm]

Aahhh.
BUt what if the believing in them is what makes them real?
Meaning the more that believe the more real they become?

That one way it works, actually. But making thoughtforms real does not make them God. The terminology is confusing, but the distinction is quite sharp.

 

[freeman2008]

If you were God and you wanted to be sure of who you let into your Kingdom, you would want to somehow test the faith of those who claim to be believers. Since giving them all the answers would be cheating, they must either have faith, or not. Those who do not love the Father, will naturally have no faith. They will try and find answers elsewhere. Although many like to blame God for their lack of faith, the truth remains. We are tested by those who hate us. They try and befriend us, then deceive us into thinking that there are better answers, like the serpent in the Garden. It all sounds very mysterious and religious and just within reach. But either you love the Father, or you don't. The Father is not going to make you love him. He does not want those who have to be told the answers, or convinced of the truth. He simply wants to be loved in return. He created us in the Spirit of love, for love. Love is the underlying theme of the teachings of Jesus.
He came to teach us as the Father instructed him to do. If you love the Father, then what he taught is great news. If you don't, then you will find ways to undermine his teachings in favor of something you believe is greater but somehow just out of reach.
Myself, I will be content to be a part of the Fathers love wherever that may be. Good luck in your search for greater knowledge of the great mysteries, but in my mind, I think you will not like what you find there.

 

[McBell]

If you were God and you wanted to be sure of who you let into your Kingdom, you would want to somehow test the faith of those who claim to be believers. Since giving them all the answers would be cheating, they must either have faith, or not. Those who do not love the Father, will naturally have no faith. They will try and find answers elsewhere. Although many like to blame God for their lack of faith, the truth remains. We are tested by those who hate us. They try and befriend us, then deceive us into thinking that there are better answers, like the serpent in the Garden. It all sounds very mysterious and religious and just within reach. But either you love the Father, or you don't. The Father is not going to make you love him. He does not want those who have to be told the answers, or convinced of the truth. He simply wants to be loved in return. He created us in the Spirit of love, for love. Love is the underlying theme of the teachings of Jesus.

So you do not believe God is all knowing then...?

 

[Storm]

If you were God and you wanted to be sure of who you let into your Kingdom, you would want to somehow test the faith of those who claim to be believers. Since giving them all the answers would be cheating, they must either have faith, or not. Those who do not love the Father, will naturally have no faith. They will try and find answers elsewhere. Although many like to blame God for their lack of faith, the truth remains. We are tested by those who hate us. They try and befriend us, then deceive us into thinking that there are better answers, like the serpent in the Garden. It all sounds very mysterious and religious and just within reach. But either you love the Father, or you don't. The Father is not going to make you love him. He does not want those who have to be told the answers, or convinced of the truth. He simply wants to be loved in return. He created us in the Spirit of love, for love. Love is the underlying theme of the teachings of Jesus.

That's nice. Now would you care to answer the question?

 

[Luminous]

If you were God and you wanted to be sure of who you let into your Kingdom, you would want to somehow test the faith of those who claim to be believers. Since giving them all the answers would be cheating, they must either have faith, or not. Those who do not love the Father, will naturally have no faith. They will try and find answers elsewhere. Although many like to blame God for their lack of faith, the truth remains. We are tested by those who hate us. They try and befriend us, then deceive us into thinking that there are better answers, like the serpent in the Garden. It all sounds very mysterious and religious and just within reach. But either you love the Father, or you don't. The Father is not going to make you love him. He does not want those who have to be told the answers, or convinced of the truth. He simply wants to be loved in return. He created us in the Spirit of love, for love. Love is the underlying theme of the teachings of Jesus.
He came to teach us as the Father instructed him to do. If you love the Father, then what he taught is great news. If you don't, then you will find ways to undermine his teachings in favor of something you believe is greater but somehow just out of reach.
Myself, I will be content to be a part of the Fathers love wherever that may be. Good luck in your search for greater knowledge of the great mysteries, but in my mind, I think you will not like what you find there.

: Yes! i would love testing faith.
Me:

poke, poke... hey! don't get angry

.
Jhuger - Kissing Hank's ***

 

[Hope]

If you had a magic wand and could pretend for a moment it was possible God doesn't exist, what kind of proof could someone show you to convince you?

Non-existence. Of anything. Of course.

Your question seems very illogical to me. The very proof it would take to convince me God does not exist is the one proof that can never be given. We are only having this discussion about whether or not God exists because God exists.

 

[Storm]

They're not stupid enough to believe you, troll.

 

[Luminous]

Non-existence. Of anything. Of course.

Your question seems very illogical to me. The very proof it would take to convince me God does not exist is the one proof that can never be given. We are only having this discussion about whether or not God exists because God exists.

: unless it was US who existed forever...