What proof would convince you God doesn't exist?

[Arlanbb]

If you had a magic wand and could pretend for a moment it was possible God doesn't exist, what kind of proof could someone show you to convince you? Would an original Bible with the extra page at the end which says "By the way, I was just kidding - Moses"

My reason for asking this question is I want to put theism in a slightly stronger position than it currently is in my mind. I feel that if you, as a theist, can think of a possible (or impossible if you feel the laws of the universe are tied to the existence of God) way to disprove your position it makes it much stronger. If you can say, "I won't ever loose my belief in God until [blank] happens," then you strengthen your position as a logical one which you can defend.

I'm most interested in hearing ideas from theists about how they could prove God doesn't exist which don't necessarily have anything to do with science. I mean if you believe in miracles and the supernatural what about other supernatural ideas?

How about if Zeus came down off of Mt. Olympus and told everyone he was the real god and Jehovah was just a myth?
How about if the Devil killed God somehow - thus proving that God is not all powerful?
How about if you got a magic lamp and wished to be there when Moses got the ten commandments and you saw him chiseling them out himself?
How about if we found a magic potion to return everyone who is dead back to life and they all reported that Anubus was the ruler of the underworld?

I would really like to know what it would take for YOU to be convinced. What would prove it to YOU?

Also I wanted to say this is not an atheist trap. I'm not interesting in debating your reasons here, I am just curious if you can think of any.

I'm A Theiest but a evolutionist also. That is a simple question. Here is my answer:

IF none of the stars existed and none of this earths sun, planets and their moons existed and this earth did not exist then I would have to say God did not exist. There would be no God because he had not created anything even hinself. What else could I say because I would not exist.

But because this earth is so well balanced between our moon and the sun, and has air all around it - The moon keeps the oceans from being stagent and a few miles closer to the sun we would burn up or a few miles away from the sun or we would be ice and the air lets us breath - and there is life here -- I would say the odd are in my favor that someone of some kind started something going at one time that has produced a lot of life for millions of years.

I hope you like that answer.

 

[TerranIV]

I'm A Theiest but a evolutionist also. That is a simple question. Here is my answer:

IF none of the stars existed and none of this earths sun, planets and their moons existed and this earth did not exist then I would have to say God did not exist. There would be no God because he had not created anything even hinself. What else could I say because I would not exist.

But because this earth is so well balanced between our moon and the sun, and has air all around it - The moon keeps the oceans from being stagent and a few miles closer to the sun we would burn up or a few miles away from the sun or we would be ice and the air lets us breath - and there is life here -- I would say the odd are in my favor that someone of some kind started something going at one time that has produced a lot of life for millions of years.

I hope you like that answer.

If this is truly your opinion then I do appreciate your answer.

I was more looking for something which could conceivably be true without negating the existence of the universe. If you really think the mere fact we exist and the sun exists as proof of God then that is very interesting.

Besides just curiosity, one of the things I was interested in when asking this question is to find out how many people who believe in god were really open to the idea (just the idea) of God not being real. I find it endlessly fascinating how many people who believe in God find it completely unimaginable to even think for a moment that God doesn't exist.

Is this because of some fear of God reading people's thoughts and punishing them if they entertain the notion he might not exist? Is it the inability to think of the world existing without God? I'm sure for some people it is ignorance in how the universe really works - everything is so complicated and difficult to understand and perhaps the idea of SOMEONE who knows what is going on and is making sure everything works fine is a comfort which people just cannot let go of, for even a second.

I know of many theists who are very well educated so it cannot just be this.

I think there is something ingrained in people's outlook on life that makes people only able to see the world existing with God unless they go through an experience where they can suddenly see behind the curtain. It's like there has to be an "awakening" of sorts in people to be able to see past the smoke and mirrors and comforting ideas of religions myths to see the world how it really is.

I think part of this is people's reluctance to it. It actually takes a bit of faith that the world is not going to come crashing apart if you think about the idea of God not existing. People think of all the scary things this would mean - like the idea of no life after death for ourselves and our loved ones. People don't understand how amazing and beautiful the world becomes when you understand how complex and complicated reality really is. The fact this universe and life came into existence WITHOUT a creator makes life all that more precious and awe inspiring.

 

[Arlanbb]

If this is truly your opinion then I do appreciate your answer.

I was more looking for something which could conceivably be true without negating the existence of the universe. If you really think the mere fact we exist and the sun exists as proof of God then that is very interesting.

It is no "mere fact" about the sun and us being here. There are hundrads of other "facts" that work into to the mathmatics of probability. The complexity of the eagle eye over the human eye and or any eyes on this earth all of them match just right so that each living creature's eyes are made just for them. And why is it that we don't see things upside down, our eyes are just like a camera lens and the image has been twisted around so we see rightside up. Water has just the right surface tention so it can move up against gravity into tree trunks and the lakes do not freeze from the bottom up in winter because water expands when it freezes. It's like taking a pocket watch apart and putting all the metal wheals and screws and metal case into a box and then shaking the box till sometime in the future all the pieces have been put together so well that it would work -- but someone has to be there to wind the watch so that it runs and keep time. Any way you look if you add up all the hundreds of marvels of what is on this earth the odds of all these thing happening together are so enormas that it is like having an infinity answer for it to just happen - there had to be something or some one that turn it on to start life. How it happened - I don't know --- I'm just glad it happened. The odds are way in my favor that someone's god fliped the switch.

 

[TerranIV]

It is no "mere fact" about the sun and us being here. There are hundrads of other "facts" that work into to the mathmatics of probability.

Wow, lots of stuff to cover. The mathematics of probability are actually quite in the favor of things just coming together without the interference of a God. The universe, and the earth, and the sun took billions of years to come together. Together with the laws of physics this provides more than enough opportunity for things to come together.

All the facts actually run contrary to every major religious idea of how the universe was created. Scientists like Galileo were devoted Christians, they were not working from a preconceived idea - they facts just don't match up to anything writen in the bible.

The complexity of the eagle eye over the human eye and or any eyes on this earth all of them match just right so that each living creature's eyes are made just for them. And why is it that we don't see things upside down, our eyes are just like a camera lens and the image has been twisted around so we see rightside up.

This idea stems from a misunderstanding of evolution, and the difficulty of grasping the vast expanses of time which have shaped the human and eagle eyes. Evololution relys on many generations of eagles and humans with gradual changes to the eye and brain.

There are many mysteries of the brain like why our brain turns the image in the back of the eye right-side up, and why we control the left side of our bodies with the right side of our brain. Religion's idea of "God did it" is no more of an explaination than "i don't know how it happened". Just because you don't know why it happened, doesn't mean it is a mystical or magical thing.

Water has just the right surface tention so it can move up against gravity into tree trunks and the lakes do not freeze from the bottom up in winter because water expands when it freezes.

Again this argument comes from the wrong side. Obviously there are many things about water which is important to life. The idea that "water has just the right [properties]" for life could also be restated as "Life is dependant on the specific properties of water." In other words, water was not made that way FOR us or other life forms, life evolved BECAUSE water has the properties it has.

Also, we have not found any other life on another planet yet. It is entirely possible life on another planet may not be water based. The conditions on some other planet could be so differnt that amonia or some other liquid could the liquid of choice for life on that planet.

Again just because we don't know, doesn't mean it's proof of god or magic. I don't know how David Copperfield does a lot of his tricks, but I'm pretty sure it's not God.

It's like taking a pocket watch apart and putting all the metal wheals and screws and metal case into a box and then shaking the box till sometime in the future all the pieces have been put together so well that it would work -- but someone has to be there to wind the watch so that it runs and keep time.

Actually life is nothing like a pocket watch. It's more like if you had a watch whoes differet parts were allive and if aranging themselves into a pocket watch would be mutially benificial to all of them. Then you can see how easily - given time and opportunity - the different parts would "want" to come together.

They would naturally be attracted to each other because they would find that being a watch would help them stay alive and have little baby watch parts. You have to remember there is not just one human being - but billions. There have been countless billions of humans who have existed throughout the thousands of years we have existed as a species.

Comparing billions of things to one single pocket watch which has no mobility and does not have any genetic code which can mutate over time shows a complete lack of understanding of how life and evolution work.

Any way you look if you add up all the hundreds of marvels of what is on this earth the odds of all these thing happening together are so enormas that it is like having an infinity answer for it to just happen - there had to be something or some one that turn it on to start life. How it happened - I don't know --- I'm just glad it happened. The odds are way in my favor that someone's god fliped the switch.

Once more I will say that not knowing how a trick is done doesn't automatically mean it was god or a fairy. IF you could tell me HOW God did all these things, I would be more inclined to believe you, but you don't know either and "God" isn't telling.

Well science is telling. The hugeness of the sun can scarcly be understood when you think that it burns up 5 TONS of hydrogen EACH SECOND and has been doing so for over 4.5 BILLION YEARS! The amount of matter this implys is staggering. The amount of time in 4.5 billion years has no human scale.

It took over 3 billion years for life to appear on earth - a log time for the natural forces in nature to bring together molecules for life - just like the natural inclination of rocks to fall down a mountain towards the pull of gravity. Once life evolved there was an "explosion" in different species and many of the basic structors of life were arrived at soon after as a natural "best fit" for the environment it was created in. Over the millions of years since then small steps are taken through the years, steps so small it is impossible to see the progress durring a human lifetime or even durring the thousands of years of human history.

So no, the fact that the sun exists does not point to a god, but points rather to natural forces existing in the universe which have slowly sculpted and refined matter into the extremely complex and amazing creatures, like us, which exist on this planet. Sure, without knowing any of this it is understandable humans would think it was magic, or that some magical being like a fairy or titan or god made it this way.

Today with all we have learned about how the universe really was made and how is could have easily been made without the help of a mystical being, there is no reason to attribute any of the mysteries of the universe to a god because the only honest answer to why mysterious things are how they are is "I don't know." And neither do you.

The mysteries make us feel awe of the universe, but many times the explainations behind them are even more amazing. Religion is not giving humanity any more answers. For a time it was the best people could think of, but now with scientific instruments we can see beyond our limited senses and find real answers to our questions and real solutions. Maybe science won't find the answer to everything, but religion is not even trying!

 

[sandy whitelinger]

If you had a magic wand and could pretend for a moment it was possible God doesn't exist, what kind of proof could someone show you to convince you?

You cannot logically prove something doesn't exist.

 

[TerranIV]

You cannot logically prove something doesn't exist.

You can to a reasonable extent to something which is defined. I.E. I can prove there is nothing but air and empty space inside a box by opening it and showing it to you.

If you define what you think God is, then you can disprove it by some magical way. I.E. If you think God lives in a planet around a star called Kolob, you could find that star and search all the planets around it and if you didn't find God you could reasonable state he was not there and didn't exist.

There may not be any PRACTICAL way to disprove many things, but if you had unlimited resources and time (or a magic wand) you can disprove anything which you can define (because by defining it, you set the rules which you can disprove it.) A "blue sky" can be disproved by a "red sky" because a red sky is not a blue sky by definition.

Unless you can define god as something with actual properties then you cannot disprove it. This is because until you define god, he/she/it is not only imaginary but also not "real" (i.e. cannot exist - a unicorn is imaginary but it COULD be real, because it has specific qualities which you can define and either prove or disprove - disproving it would not be PRACTICAL because it may involve unreasonable time and expense to search the whole earth for unicorns, but it can THEORETICALLY be disproven) and there is no need to disprove something which doesn't exist in the first place.

Something "unreal" cannot even be theoretically proven or disproven and this is the crux of my point of asking this question - many people who "believe" in god don't even know what god is. They just believe for no reason, which is fundamentally unreasonable.

I am very surprised there is not a more reasonable response to this argument from believers. There have been a few who have stated a real way that their god could be disproven, but most cannot see of any logical way to disprove their god. I am kind of stunned at the derth of logical thought from many people about this. It's as if many people think God just dosen't play by the laws of this universe and so it's ok if there is absolutly no evidence for his existance. I think maybe many people just don't realize the significance of this.

The fact archeologists have been able to find real concrete evidence for the city of Troy, and yet cannot find anything to substantiate any of the "miracles" god does. Every single one collapses under any kind of serious scrutany and yet some believers find this completely insignificant.

Any serious believer who actually truly believes their god exists in this universe would easily be able to think of something which would disprove their god's existance when given the unlimited time and resources a "magic wand" would give them.

 

[McBell]

If you define what you think God is, then you can disprove it by some magical way. I.E. If you think God lives in a planet around a star called Kolob, you could find that star and search all the planets around it and if you didn't find God you could reasonable state he was not there and didn't exist.

How do you figure that if something is not where you believe it to be that it does not exist?
In the above all you have shown is that God is not on a planet around Kolob.
You have in no way shown that God does not exist.

and there is no need to disprove something which doesn't exist in the first place.

Yet you have to make an assumption, based on lack of evidence, that unicorns do not exist.
You cannot prove they do not exist.

Something "unreal" cannot even be theoretically proven or disproven and this is the crux of my point of asking this question - many people who "believe" in god don't even know what god is. They just believe for no reason, which is fundamentally unreasonable.

So how do you "know" that it is 'unreal'?
You yourself just stated that it cannot be proven.
Who believes for no reason?
I bet you that every single theist believes for a reason.
You disagreeing with and/or not liking their reason is irrelevant.

I am very surprised there is not a more reasonable response to this argument from believers. There have been a few who have stated a real way that their god could be disproven, but most cannot see of any logical way to disprove their god. I am kind of stunned at the derth of logical thought from many people about this. It's as if many people think God just dosen't play by the laws of this universe and so it's ok if there is absolutly no evidence for his existance. I think maybe many people just don't realize the significance of this.

You speak as if all the laws are not only known, but fully understood.

The fact archeologists have been able to find real concrete evidence for the city of Troy, and yet cannot find anything to substantiate any of the "miracles" god does. Every single one collapses under any kind of serious scrutany and yet some believers find this completely insignificant.

I have to agree.
Yet this does not "prove" God either way.

Any serious believer who actually truly believes their god exists in this universe would easily be able to think of something which would disprove their god's existance when given the unlimited time and resources a "magic wand" would give them.

I disagree.
Here you seem to be saying that one has to have a minimum level of intelligence in order to be a serious believer when the rest of your post insinuates (whether intentionally or not) that one must dispel intelligence to believe.
Make up your mind.

 

[Comicaze247]

It's difficult to make someone not believe (especially hardcore radicals). If someone really wants to believe something with every ounce of faith in their body, they will find things to back up their beliefs. Faith is believing something beyond all logic. So no logical evidence you show them will sway them.

 

[bobhikes]

That god created the world and only a select group of one species is important to him

That god created the world and filled it with strife for all the species so that a select group of one species can prove there worth.

That god created the world so he could destroy it.

That god created the world with multiple species requiring a select group of one species to worship him.

That god created the world to stay apart from it and watch and judge playing with only at certain times and inspiring only certain people from a select group of one species. Instead of just being part of his creation.

That God allows man to interpet his inspirations incorrectly and not perfectly so all have a chance of knowing him.

That God is going to create a perfect world for a select group of one species.



OH wait that is what people believe in god.

 

[TerranIV]

How do you figure that if something is not where you believe it to be that it does not exist?
In the above all you have shown is that God is not on a planet around Kolob.
You have in no way shown that God does not exist.

If something is not where you look for it it either does not exist or is invisible. I'm sure an all powerful god could be invisible if he wanted. Assuming he/she/it COULD be found, searching EVERYWHERE (we are literally talking everywhere because this is a magic wand after all) then is DOES prove (to a resonable extent) there is no god there.

The only reason you wouldn't find him in such a search would be
1. He/she/it doesn't WANT to be found and is using it's magic powers to hide itself from us
or
2. He/she/it does not exist.

I realize "prove" is a strong word to use, but honestly if you can "prove" anything in this universe an exhaustive search of an area where something is claimed to exist (by deffinition) then it does't exist. (If your definition of god is defendant upon him/her/it existing in a certain place and it DOESN'T then you have dis-proven that god's existence.)

I know there is a lot of semantics we can get hung up on in this discussion but I don't think anyone believes the existance of god is dependant upon finding or not finding him/her/it in a certain place so I will move on...

Yet you have to make an assumption, based on lack of evidence, that unicorns do not exist.
You cannot prove they do not exist.

Again, I'm sure you really don't really believe unicorns exist so I'm sure you are just trying to say I can't really PROVE anything doesn't exist.

Of course "unicorns" could refer to rhinoceroses and then maybe they do exist, but the common deffinition of a unicorn in moder usage is a horse-like animal with a spiral pointed horn on it's forehead. This animal has never actually existed and no one has ever seriously stated it has.

If you actually believe it is really impossible to disprove unicorns exist then you really need to re-think your standards for evidence.

So how do you "know" that it is 'unreal'?
You yourself just stated that it cannot be proven.
Who believes for no reason?
I bet you that every single theist believes for a reason.
You disagreeing with and/or not liking their reason is irrelevant.

I would describe something as "unreal" which doesn't adhere to any of the laws of nature.

You could argue god doesn't have to conform to the laws of nature and that would be a valid argument. However, in order to interact with anything IN this universe god would need to (at least temporarily) assume some physical (or energetic) presence to affect objects in this world.

If you say god has no physical properties which rely on the laws of nature and the universe this is the same as saying he doesn't exist.

You speak as if all the laws are not only known, but fully understood.

Not true, just because we don't understand the laws of nature, doesn't mean they don't conform to them. I'm not arguing there are not things out there we don't understand, but the idea of god is based his interactions with people. These interactions are described in great detail - they are not "unknown". The problem with these interactions are they are NEVER REPRODUCABLE and so they cannot be examined.

Even dark energy and dark matter can be observed and studied - even if we don't understand it.

If god was represented by some sort of phenomenon which was observable all the time (but not understood) then you could claim it was "real". This would require it to be able to be observed by our senses or our instruments. God has been defined by his interactions with human senses throughout existance, so it is reasonable he/she/it should be detectable by our senses.

Further, the problem with experiences with god is they are easily explained as illusions mistakes, but they have no explaination in any measurable way. God shouldn't have to violate the laws of nature to exist. Especially when there are alternative explainations to his/her/it's existance which fall within the laws of nature - i.e. god doesn't exist.

I have to agree.
Yet this does not "prove" God either way.

Only if you believe there is no possible way to prove anything or if you insist god doesn't adhear to any natural (not known) laws.

All I'm asking is for god to be able to be observed and measured in some way. Is that too much to ask? Can we agree god has some physical form? The bible says we are made in his image (so he must resemble us and be albe to be seen). Moses saw his finger and his back side. He wrote the commandments with his own finger in stone. He wrote on the temple wall in jerusalem. Some say he fully took human form in the man named Jesus. Are all of these ideas false or can you admit there must be some physical thing out there you can point to as "god"?

If god has no properties, then how is that any different than saying he doesn't exist?

I disagree.
Here you seem to be saying that one has to have a minimum level of intelligence in order to be a serious believer when the rest of your post insinuates (whether intentionally or not) that one must dispel intelligence to believe.
Make up your mind.

If you are saying all believers are fools then I must disagree. They are very smart people. They use logic in there every day lives and in every experience they have with another person. Unfortunately they really don't think of god as something real. They have never seen god, they have never touched his/her/it's hand. They don't have a real sense of god other than the graven images which are shown to them representing god. They are taught from birth to accept god as real. They never ask themselves "is god real, is there any reason to believe it his existance" any more than a child questions santa clause.

This is not because they are stuipd, but because they don't think about it. Modern humans are not any smarter than people thousands of years ago who thought the earth was flat or at the center of the universe. It just never occured to them they were living on a round ball of rock orbiting a huge ball of hydrogen and that all the tiny stars in the night sky were actually similar to the sun but farther away.

People are not stupid at all, they just don't have the right perspective. If they would submit god to the same sort of scruteniny they do any other person they meet, they would find there is a lot to be suspicious about. Society has a lot invested in religion, it is not an easy thing to tell people who have believed their whole lives in god they are wrong. Galileo was put in jail for saying the earth traveled around the sun! How minor is that compared to saying god does not exist! There is no pretty picture of the earth rising over the moons horizon to send that message home to people. They have to put it together from all the evidence out there.

You are right when you say you cannot prove something doesn't exist, but neither can you prove god DOES exist!

For any other fanciful tale it would be proposterous to belive with no evidence but a book full of fairy stories. Religion is pounded into peoples heads their whole lives. They are forced to got to meetings every week, say prayers every day, confess to their preacher their most embarassing and private thoughts and deeds. Those who believe but don't do these things are looked down on as lesser people, as "sinners" or infidels.

There are so many other reasons society believes in god. None of these reasons are based on unbiased though or discovery. The scientists, like Galileo, who first looked to the heavens were pious men, looking for god. The more they looked, they more they were disappointed, until they only rational place for god was far in the past at the very begining of time. Deism was the only way they could reconcile their belief in god with the lack of any evidence.

People aren't stupid, they just haven't really honestly considered the idea there is no god. The idea is tainted by so many ideas of being cast into hell or not going to heaven. The idea comes with the fact they will die and never live again and that when their loved ones die they will never see them again. These things are very scary and the human mind is very creative in trying to find away to solve these problems.

It's not easy to accept the idea there is no god. Not because people don't want to believe, but because they don't allow themselves to belive and the alternative (god) is so comforting and socially acceptable. People may be blind and afraid, but they are far from stupid.

 

[TerranIV]

It's difficult to make someone not believe (especially hardcore radicals). If someone really wants to believe something with every ounce of faith in their body, they will find things to back up their beliefs. Faith is believing something beyond all logic. So no logical evidence you show them will sway them.

Very true. People believe what they want to believe. Even though atheists rely on logic and evidence to back up their opinions, it is a choice to give credence to them. You have to choose to believe in akums razor and demand evidence of something before you will make life decisions based on it.

I believe there is something about the idea of god which is deeply rooted in the human psyche. Unless you can replace that need for god and the supernatural with something else, like science and/or reason, there will be a need to come up with some supernatural explanation to the universe's mysteries.

No one can change someone else's mind unless they are open to it. You have to put the pieces together for yourself.

I guess I used to be, what I would consider, a logical believer when I was a christian. I really believed in all the miracles and I believed in God as an actual human-looking male figure. I thought the bible was really true and that prayer worked through actual means - perhaps some spirit medium or ether which would carry my prayers to god. I could have thought of a thousand ways god could be proven wrong, they just never happened.

My proof came in the promises of the bible unfulfilled. The "ask and ye shall receive" promises which never happened. I waited years and suffered faithfully, until I couldn't take it anymore. I was a faithful follower who believed in the promises of an all powerful god. When it turned out he was a liar I had little choice but to turn my back on such a being or be a traitor to all the values I held dear. I had spent all my life learning about why other people's gods were wrong so I had no where else to turn after I realized mine wasn't real either.

It was a hard struggle to come to grips with the reality of god being a figment of our collective imagination. I had went through some deeply spiritual experiences. I even thought I heard god's voice (or the holy spirit's voice) whispering in my ear. It took a lot of willpower not to pray after I said my final goodbye to god.

What I learned was I am just as good, if not better, without god than I was when I believed. There was no special blessing or protection given to me when I prayed. No special attention given to my problems.

The idea there was no one there to turn a deaf ear to my prayers actually made me feel better about things. It made me rely on myself and gave me motivation to get things done on my own. Not that I was lazy when I believed, but I wasn't bitter anymore at my misfortune. I realized bad things happened through natural occurrences and not as any punishment to me or any trial I was being put through.

My message to anyone who is reading this is there are benefits of choosing not to believe in god. And there are good reasons not to believe. If your belief in god is helping you in your life then that is fine. I believe my life is better for letting go of the fantasy there is someone watching me, judging me, needing my worship.

Life is more important to me knowing it is my only one. The wonders of the universe seem more amazing and the vastness of this universe seems more grand without a human-sized myth for a god creating it. It's much more beautiful than any prophet or seer could ever imagine.

 

[Katzpur]

Terran, I'm just wondering when you actually decided there was no God. Was it before, during or after your mission?

 

[TerranIV]

Terran, I'm just wondering when you actually decided there was no God. Was it before, during or after your mission?

It was years after I came home. Why would I go on a LDS mission if I knew there was no god?

I guess it would be a great undercover operation. I could undermine the whole thing and bring the entire LDS church crashing to the ground! Bwah ha ha ha!

Sadly, my only motivations to go on a mission were to do my duty to god and spread the gospel of jesus. THAT's two years I'll never get back!

 

[Aten]

I wouldnt be here otherwise for i am the Yawhew

 

[Ben Dhyan]

What proof would convince you God doesn't exist?

Absolute proof that all that exists, doesn't exist, and that includes TerranIV and myself!

FWIW, I don't know about you TerranIV, but I must admit to finding it paradoxical to contemplate the concept that I don't exist.

 

[rojse]

The fake ones [gods] care about being believed in, for starters.

Doesn't the God in the Bible come across in this exact manner?

 

[S-word]

If you had a magic wand and could pretend for a moment it was possible God doesn't exist, what kind of proof could someone show you to convince you? Would an original Bible with the extra page at the end which says "By the way, I was just kidding - Moses"

My reason for asking this question is I want to put theism in a slightly stronger position than it currently is in my mind. I feel that if you, as a theist, can think of a possible (or impossible if you feel the laws of the universe are tied to the existence of God) way to disprove your position it makes it much stronger. If you can say, "I won't ever loose my belief in God until [blank] happens," then you strengthen your position as a logical one which you can defend.

I'm most interested in hearing ideas from theists about how they could prove God doesn't exist which don't necessarily have anything to do with science. I mean if you believe in miracles and the supernatural what about other supernatural ideas?

How about if Zeus came down off of Mt. Olympus and told everyone he was the real god and Jehovah was just a myth?
How about if the Devil killed God somehow - thus proving that God is not all powerful?
How about if you got a magic lamp and wished to be there when Moses got the ten commandments and you saw him chiseling them out himself?
How about if we found a magic potion to return everyone who is dead back to life and they all reported that Anubus was the ruler of the underworld?

I would really like to know what it would take for YOU to be convinced. What would prove it to YOU?

Also I wanted to say this is not an atheist trap. I'm not interesting in debating your reasons here, I am just curious if you can think of any.

Prove to me that the Cosmos is not a living entity in which intelligence has developed, and that there is no divine animating principle that pervades all that exists, from which all things came into existence, by which all things came into existence and for whom all things exist, then and only then will I believe that there is no God.

 

[Storm]

Doesn't the God in the Bible come across in this exact manner?

Are you trying to get me in trouble?

Yes, I think the God of the OT may well have been such a being.

 

[TerranIV]

Prove to me that the Cosmos is not a living entity in which intelligence has developed, and that the divine animating principle that pervades all that exists, from which all things came into existence, by which all things came into existence and for whom all things exist, then and only then will I believe that there is no God.

Can you point out one thing which your point depends on? Is the development of intelligent life essential for your god to exist? If so, could I refine your statement to say:"If intelligent life didn't exist, god would also not exist?" This is more the kind of answer I'm looking for (to narrow down the discussion). This would mean there is something we have actual evidence for (intelligent life) which you base your belief in god in.

I'm unsure how you (or anyone else) would prove or disprove the entire cosmos is a living entity. What kind of evidence do you have for this? What kind of measurable properties does this "living entity" have which would differentiate it from a "non-living universe which was just following natural processes." I'm sure you could point to many things which are life-LIKE (such as fire - It needs oxygen, it consumes fuel, etc).

During this thread I have noticed an interesting pattern in the responses of theists and deists who have responded. I notice most of the responses put the burden of proof on dis-proving god, while I would put most atheists in the opposite camp (myself included) as asking for evidence BEFORE belief. I've also found it interesting it seems many of the religious replies infer it is "impossible" to disprove their beliefs.

I would ask the theists and deists to step back from your own perspective for a moment and realize how many of you have conflicting beliefs about god. This indicates one very important thing - If ANY of you is right - this would mean at lease SOME of the others here are WRONG to some degree. Think about that for a second. Now ask yourself why YOU are not the one who is wrong. "My position cannot be disproved!" you might say. This is what EVERY person who has a religious position says, yet if you have opposite ideas ONE of you HAS TO BE WRONG (if one of you is right). The only other explanation for two opposing views is BOTH of them are WRONG.

Theists and deists may think atheists requirement of proof or evidence before BELIEVING is too high. I would propose many theists and deists requirement of proof or evidence before you admit your position is WRONG is unreasonably high.

(I apologize for the use of caps - I don't know how to use italics in the forum) :angel2:

 

[Katzpur]

It was years after I came home. Why would I go on a LDS mission if I knew there was no god?

Uh... How about because you were 19 years old and afraid to tell your parents you not only didn't believe the Church to be true, but were convinced there was no God. Come on, you know a lot of 19-year-old kids go on missions for their parents.