What qualifies as "Religion"?

[blackout]

Taoism is a combination of a number of teachings based on various revelations, its more of a theology on nature and life. You don't go do a church to pray Tao, there is no creator or list of rules you should follow. Taoism is more of a way to perceive life and nature.

Ok, so to you crimson,
Religion requires a "creator" (god) to pray to
and a list of rules you should follow.
Am I correct in this statement?

Do you agree with Luis
that religion exists within the practitioner
as opposed to "being" the proposed doctrines and rules themselves?

Can Religion be "contained" in a book?
Or only realized/REALized in a person.

 

[Erebus]

As ever, my idea of what religion is is kind of unorthodox. In my mind, your religion is whatever path through life you choose, regardless of whether it has a holy book or a fixed guideline. Your beliefs on the other hand are how you interpret the world and may or may not impact on your religion.

 

[blackout]

As ever, my idea of what religion is is kind of unorthodox. In my mind, your religion is whatever path through life you choose, regardless of whether it has a holy book or a fixed guideline. Your beliefs on the other hand are how you interpret the world and may or may not impact on your religion.

How would your interpretation of the world not effect your Path, Shyanekh?

 

[blackout]

Yes, that is certainly how I see it. Doctrines attempt to teach religion, with various degrees of sincerity, wisdom and success. But they aren't religion proper. Religion is a private, individual achievement, even if it involves a strong degree of social interaction and thought.



Thanks for you attention.

Thank you for your thoughts, insights and participation. :rainbow1:

 

[Erebus]

How would your interpretation of the world not effect your Path, Shyanekh?

Things like whether or not you believe capital punishment is appropriate or not may not actually affect the way you live your life, many people hold a view one way or the other on this, but don't actually act on it or feel greatly affected by it. As a more spiritual example, some deists may believe in a creator, but feel that this belief does not (or should not) influence the way they live.

Admittedly it's likely that most of your beliefs will influence the life you lead, but not necessarily all of them

 

[blackout]

As ever, my idea of what religion is is kind of unorthodox. In my mind, your religion is whatever path through life you choose, regardless of whether it has a holy book or a fixed guideline. Your beliefs on the other hand are how you interpret the world and may or may not impact on your religion.

Things like whether or not you believe capital punishment is appropriate or not may not actually affect the way you live your life, many people hold a view one way or the other on this, but don't actually act on it or feel greatly affected by it. As a more spiritual example, some deists may believe in a creator, but feel that this belief does not (or should not) influence the way they live.

Admittedly it's likely that most of your beliefs will influence the life you lead, but not necessarily all of them

OK, So Religion is the Way You Live Your Life
and
your Beliefs are the way you View the World.

That actually works for me.
Though I know it won't for most.

 

[Erebus]

OK, So Religion is the Way You Live Your Life
and
your Beliefs are the way you View the World.

That actually works for me.
Though I know it won't for most.

Yes pretty much. In retrospect I should have been more specific than "your path through life" as it can be interpreted in too many different ways. The way you put it is far more succinct

 

[crimsonlung]

Ok, so to you crimson,
Religion requires a "creator" (god) to pray to
and a list of rules you should follow.
Am I correct in this statement?

yes

Do you agree with Luis
that religion exists within the practitioner
as opposed to "being" the proposed doctrines and rules themselves?

Can Religion be "contained" in a book?
Or only realized/REALized in a person.

[/quote]

No, because that means somebody with the same religion as you can say it is not a religion, there is no consistency. A religion needs to be consistent. But I might be misinterpreting this. Is this saying that the practitioner decides if its a religion or not?

 

[Dan4reason]

Even this most fundmental concept of our forum here
"Religion"
is often a matter of contention.
Some posters even seem to (attemt to) prove their "points" about religion,
by defining religion to fit their points.

I am unsure at this point
if even MY OWN world view/life practice
qualifies as "religion".
(though I clearly cannot call mySelf "athiest")

We each have a world view of our own (/choosing).
So I ask...
What, in your view, qualifies a world view,
(/word view ) as "religion"?

What "elements" are inherently necessary
to the recognition of a view/perspective/practice
so as to make it ("legitimately")(a) religion?

What disqualifies a particular world view
from the title "religion"?

What is the fine line between
"religion"/"not religion"?

A religion is some sort of organized doctrine in which people have beliefs relating to the supernatural. My definition may be over-simplified but this is the best I can do as of now.

 

[crimsonlung]

Why, if you fuse or reconcile belief systems of existing religions,
will you not come up with a new one?

There is no consistency here.

If I go an take parts of Islam and Christianity, I can be a religious syncretist.

Another man can take parts of Satanism and parts of Judaism and still be called a religious syncretist.

Its a belief, not an organized religion.

 

[Willamena]

"So tell me, what are the three prerequisites for an ideology to be considered a religion?"

"ABC," one woman offered. "Assure, Believe, Convert."

"Correct," Langdon said. "Religions assure salvation; religions believe in a precise theology; and religions convert nonbelievers."

From Dan Brown's new book, The Lost Symbol.

I essentially agree with this.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

What "elements" are inherently necessary
to the recognition of a view/perspective/practice
so as to make it ("legitimately")(a) religion?

I think that part of the definition of a religion is that it is a community of shared belief.

I don't think that's the whole definition, but it's an important part, IMO.

 

[Tathagata]

you can be Muslim, and still call yourself a Taoist.

This is utterly false. In what ways are the doctrines of Islam compatible with the doctrines of Taoism? They're not compatible even in the slightest. Islam would forbid the practice of Taoism and condemn it's philosophy as heresy and you would probably be executed if you called yourself a "Muslim Taoist." And the Taoist sages would probably frown upon Islamic theology and philosophy. You should see how harsh they were towards Confucianism, just think how harsh the Taoist sages would be against Islam.

You seem to think that if something is classified as a "philosophy" or "way of life" as opposed to religion, then therefore it's compatible with religion. That line of reasoning is fallacious. Is the philosophy of Nietzsche compatible with Islam? Is the Atheist philosophy of Dawkins compatible with Islam by virtue of one being philosophy and the other, religion? No.

 

[crimsonlung]

This is utterly false. In what ways are the doctrines of Islam compatible with the doctrines of Taoism? They're not compatible even in the slightest. Islam would forbid the practice of Taoism and condemn it's philosophy as heresy and you would probably be executed if you called yourself a "Muslim Taoist." And the Taoist sages would probably frown upon Islamic theology and philosophy. You should see how harsh they were towards Confucianism, just think how harsh the Taoist sages would be against Islam.

You seem to think that if something is classified as a "philosophy" or "way of life" as opposed to religion, then therefore it's compatible with religion. That line of reasoning is fallacious. Is the philosophy of Nietzsche compatible with Islam? Is the Atheist philosophy of Dawkins compatible with Islam by virtue of one being philosophy and the other, religion? No.

No, I say it's not a religion because it can be interpreted differently from person to person, philosophy and religion are 2 very different things. In Christianity, you can deny Jesus and your not a Christian, what is the equivalent to this in Tao?

There is a reason the word Taoism exists, there is no islamicism or Christianitism. Tao is a practice, even by definition of the word. Tao means "path" or "way" (of life)

 

[Tathagata]

I am saying Taoism is not a religion, its a belief. Even the word Tao means "path" or "way" (of life)

You obviously haven't read up on Taoism. "Tao" means "flow of the Universe," it does NOT mean "way of life." Yes, the word itself translates as "the Way," but the concept of the Tao as understood in Taoism is "flow of the Universe."

And yes, Taoism can be considered a religion because it provides an explanation for the world, has a moral system, a sacred text, and people devote their lives to the philosophy. There's even Taoist monks.

How is that not a religion? You think just because it doesn't have a church that it's not a religion? Guess what, Christianity is the only one with "churches," so all the others aren't considered religions cause they don't have a church and prayer?

 

[Tathagata]

No, I say it's not a religion

You missed the point of my post. I granted that Taoism is just a philosophy and not a religion (for the sake of argument), so I was explaining that even if Taoism were just a philosophy, it still wouldn't be compatible with Islam.

Please tell me how the doctrines of Taoism are compatible with Islam. It doesn't matter whether their philosophies or religions or ways of life, they still have doctrines that contradict eachother.

(In my second post, that's when I started disputing whether Taoism is a religion or not.)

because it can be interpreted differently from person to person,

That is NOT what makes philosophy a philosophy. You don't think religions can also be interpreted differently from person to person?
Look at all the sects of Christianity; that's because different people interpreted it differently.

philosophy and religion are 2 very different things.

Yeah, I know that.

In Christianity, you can deny Jesus and your not a Christian, what is the equivalent to this in Tao?

Are you serious? If you don't believe the philsophy of the Tao then you're not a Taoist. Simple.

There is a reason the word Taoism exists, there is no islamicism or Christianitism.

That's not what qualifies something as a religion. You really think that "ism"s can't be religions? "BuddhISM" and "JainISM" are religions yet have the suffix "ism."

Tao is a practice,

Yeah, so is Islam and Christianity. Ever heard of Muslim practitioners? Yeah, people also practice religions.

even by definition of the word. Tao means "path" or "way" (of life)

False.

 

[crimsonlung]

You obviously haven't read up on Taoism. "Tao" means "flow of the Universe," it does NOT mean "way of life." Yes, the word itself translates as "the Way," but the concept of the Tao as understood in Taoism is "flow of the Universe."

And yes, Taoism can be considered a religion because it provides an explanation for the world, has a moral system, a sacred text, and people devote their lives to the philosophy. There's even Taoist monks.

How is that not a religion? You think just because it doesn't have a church that it's not a religion? Guess what, Christianity is the only one with "churches," so all the others aren't considered religions cause they don't have a church and prayer?

I didn't say anything about church at all, that was your implication, church has little relevance to religion since it stands as a place of worship and you can do the same thing at home. I admit I don't fully understand the religion but I have done quite a bit of research on it. My roadblock here is that 2 Taoist's can believe in entirely different things. Their are numerous teachings, correct? These are guidelines for improving your life, kind of like those Saturday morning specials you see that the end result is usually "Don't do Drugs" or "Obey your parents." Tao is also a interpretation of life and how it works, for example, the interpretation of Spirituality and its link to the 5 Chinese elements.

 

[crimsonlung]

You missed the point of my post. I granted that Taoism is just a philosophy and not a religion (for the sake of argument), so I was explaining that even if Taoism were just a philosophy, it still wouldn't be compatible with Islam.


Please tell me how the doctrines of Taoism are compatible with Islam

Ok, but your kind of wrong here. You don't have to believe in all parts of Tao to be a Taoist. Some parts of Islam can work well with Tao, for example, the sexuality position. Tao believes that sex is an intricate part of a romantic relationship, Islam has similar principles, if you really want me to bust out verses, I can but take my word on it, I come from a Muslim family.

That is NOT what makes philosophy a philosophy. You don't think religions can also be interpreted differently from person to person?
Look at all the sects of Christianity; that's because different people interpreted it differently.

Religions can be interpreted differently, ofcoarse, but there are labels for there different interpretations, like Presbyterians and Lutherans. Those are different religions that fall into the main religion category of Christianity. But that is something completely different. Christianity is not a philosophy, you are not Christian if you don't believe Jesus is Lord. You can't take parts of the bible out and pretend it never existed and still call yourself a Christian.

Are you serious? If you don't believe the philsophy of the Tao then you're not a Taoist. Simple.

So if I believe in abstinence which is against Taoist belief, then I am not a Taoist? If so, please show me an excerpt and I will shut my mouth right here.

That's not what qualifies something as a religion. You really think that "ism"s can't be religions? "BuddhISM" and "JainISM" are religions yet have the suffix "ism."

It was just a play on words, I was making a point.

Yeah, so is Islam and Christianity. Ever heard of Muslim practitioners? Yeah, people also practice religions.

Right, and they are considered muslims until they don't believe in prophet Mohammed, then, they are not considered Muslim. Ask any Muslim this, the lines are very clear on what it takes to be a Muslim.

 

[Tathagata]

I didn't say anything about church at all, that was your implication, church has little relevance to religion

When explaining why Taoism is not a religion, you said (on Page 2) "You don't go to church to pray to Tao."

So you implied that going to church makes something a religion.

since it stands as a place of worship and you can do the same thing at home. I admit I don't fully understand the religion but I have done quite a bit of research on it. My roadblock here is that 2 Taoist's can believe in entirely different things.

This doesn't make sense. There is one (or a few) central doctrines in Taoism just like Christianity. As long as you accept the central tenets, you are a Taoist. For example, in Christianity look at the Jehovah Witnesses vs. the Mormons. They both have very different beliefs, but they both accept the central tenets of Christianity like Jesus being God, raising from the dead, salvation, God created the earth, etc.

In Taoism, two peope can have varying beliefs as well, but as Taoists, they still accept the central doctrines of the Tao.

Their are numerous teachings, correct?

Yes, like any religion. Christianity also has "numerous" teachings throughout all the various chapters of the Bible.

These are guidelines for improving your life,

Yeah, and Christianity claims to do the same. You don't think Christianity aims to improve your life? Apparently you haven't watched televangelists.

kind of like those Saturday morning specials you see that the end result is usually "Don't do Drugs" or "Obey your parents."

That's not true and it's rather insulting towards Taoism that you would compare it to such a thing. Taoism is not just a bunch of rules to better your life. If anything, Taoism would tell you to live life by no rules at all.

Tao is also a interpretation of life and how it works,

Yeah, that's obvious, but Christianity is the same way. It tries to explain life and how the world works as well. Ever read Genesis?

 

[crimsonlung]

When explaining why Taoism is not a religion, you said (on Page 2) "You don't go to church to pray to Tao."

So you implied that going to church makes something a religion.



This doesn't make sense. There is one (or a few) central doctrines in Taoism just like Christianity. As long as you accept the central tenets, you are a Taoist. For example, in Christianity look at the Jehovah Witnesses vs. the Mormons. They both have very different beliefs, but they both accept the central tenets of Christianity like Jesus being God, raising from the dead, salvation, God created the earth, etc.

In Taoism, two peope can have varying beliefs as well, but as Taoists, they still accept the central doctrines of the Tao.



Yes, like any religion. Christianity also has "numerous" teachings throughout all the various chapters of the Bible.



Yeah, and Christianity claims to do the same. You don't think Christianity aims to improve your life? Apparently you haven't watched televangelists.



That's not true and it's rather insulting towards Taoism that you would compare it to such a thing. Taoism is not just a bunch of rules to better your life. If anything, Taoism would tell you to live life by no rules at all.



Yeah, that's obvious, but Christianity is the same way. It tries to explain life and how the world works as well. Ever read Genesis?

The church statement was an example, not a mandate, you don't HAVE to go to church to be Christian.

But, Tao leaves you to figure things out on your own, Christianity tells you how life should be lived, same with Islam and Judaism. Where is the 10 commandment equivalent to Tao? You mentioned central tenents, what would those be? Are they clearly definable?

Sure, Christianity wants to improve your life, but its not the main goal, the main goal is to get you into Heaven. In fact, most religions don't really care about your life on Earth, whats more important is afterlife.

And the way Tao views the world is much different then how the Bible does, in Tao, you are left to come up with your own conclusions.

Taoism seems like a fannie pack you can take when visiting a religion. And I don't mean to insult your beleifs at all, this is how I am interpreting this, and so far you have shown me little proof to explain otherwise.