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What sort of behavior do you consider unacceptable or wrong?

Penumbra

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Being a lawyer, or encouraging someone to study Law and earn a living from that.
Following that logic, that becoming a lawyer is bad in and of itself rather than what you use it for, only bad people would be lawyers. That would be an awful situation, with only bad people being knowledgeable and qualified to practice law.

There are lawyers out there fighting for rights, challenging corporations, and representing people that have been victims of injustice.
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
Following that logic, that becoming a lawyer is bad in and of itself rather than what you use it for, only bad people would be lawyers.

Indeed!


That would be an awful situation, with only bad people being knowledgeable and qualified to practice law.

Yes, it is.


There are lawyers out there fighting for rights, challenging corporations, and representing people that have been victims of injustice.

And they are being corrupted for that.

It would be so much better to keep the activity strictly amateur!
 

Penumbra

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Indeed!

Yes, it is.

And they are being corrupted for that.
"They" are being corrupted? All of them? Categorically? Sounds like conspiracy theorist type stuff.

My mother was a lawyer and spent years going after corporate corruption.

It would be so much better to keep the activity strictly amateur!
I'm not sure what Brazilian law is like, but in my country you can't practice law without being licensed, which requires a law degree and passing the test.

If I needed representation on some issue, I sure wouldn't want an amateur. I'd want someone that is educated on the law, passed the exam (which includes ethics training), and spends their full effort with years of experience on legal matters. They can loose their license for certain ethics violations, too.
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
"They" are being corrupted? All of them? Categorically? Sounds like conspiracy theorist type stuff.

It does?

I'm just saying it is unhealthy to work as a lawyer at all often. If one is actually paid for doing so, then moral corruption is all but a given.

Think about it for a bit. What other possible effects to moral perception could law practice have?

Its whole point is to take advantage of rules and laws in order to reach a desired outcome, justice and fairness be darned.

That is, quite simply, legalized moral corruption.



My mother was a lawyer and spent years going after corporate corruption.

I'm sure so do many others.

That, however, is besides the point.


I'm not sure what Brazilian law is like, but in my country you can't practice law without being licensed, which requires a law degree and passing the test.

Same here.

While there are some differences in the nature of the relationship between the citizens and the law and the judicial system in the two countries (the main one being that arbiters are politically assigned instead of elected), I don't think they make much of a difference to the core matter.


If I needed representation on some issue, I sure wouldn't want an amateur.

If you - or anyone - ever need legal representation on some issue, it will be because some sort of damage has already happened.

The role of arbiters and lawyers is not to avoid, correct or compensate damage, although that may happen anyway when people are lucky and legal disputes do not go on for too long.

Instead, the role of the legal and judicial systems is simply to resolve disputes.

Not in a fair way necessarily or even often, but simply to resolve them with the backing of the established institutions, so that people may go on with their lives.

Accepting that is IMO far more productive than attempting to see the legal system as something that it is not.

Justice, fairness and above all societal change will only happen outside those fields, which can and will however eventually validate the change when society wants it.


I'd want someone that is educated on the law, passed the exam (which includes ethics training), and spends their full effort with years of experience on legal matters. They can loose their license for certain ethics violations, too.

As well they should. But that is attempting to cover a canyon with a bedsheet, really. There is no hope of it actually being enough to transmute an unhealthy activity into a healthy one.
 

Curious George

Veteran Member
It does?

I'm just saying it is unhealthy to work as a lawyer at all often. If one is actually paid for doing so, then moral corruption is all but a given.

Think about it for a bit. What other possible effects to moral perception could law practice have?

Its whole point is to take advantage of rules and laws in order to reach a desired outcome, justice and fairness be darned.

That is, quite simply, legalized moral corruption.





I'm sure so do many others.

That, however, is besides the point.




Same here.

While there are some differences in the nature of the relationship between the citizens and the law and the judicial system in the two countries (the main one being that arbiters are politically assigned instead of elected), I don't think they make much of a difference to the core matter.




If you - or anyone - ever need legal representation on some issue, it will be because some sort of damage has already happened.

The role of arbiters and lawyers is not to avoid, correct or compensate damage, although that may happen anyway when people are lucky and legal disputes do not go on for too long.

Instead, the role of the legal and judicial systems is simply to resolve disputes.

Not in a fair way necessarily or even often, but simply to resolve them with the backing of the established institutions, so that people may go on with their lives.

Accepting that is IMO far more productive than attempting to see the legal system as something that it is not.

Justice, fairness and above all societal change will only happen outside those fields, which can and will however eventually validate the change when society wants it.




As well they should. But that is attempting to cover a canyon with a bedsheet, really. There is no hope of it actually being enough to transmute an unhealthy activity into a healthy one.

But when someone acts with disregard to that which is dictated by society, what consequences or remedy can one find without law and a legal system?

There are disputes that are not capable of being resolved by the individuals involved. Any system without a legal system to resolve conflict favors the strongest individual.

Having the support of an entity more powerful than any individual entity allows for weaker individuals to find remedy when society recognizes a legal wrong.

I could understand you arguing that our current legal system is not the best, and some other method would be better. But, society needs some legal system.
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
But when someone acts with disregard to that which is dictated by society,

Everyone does that to some degree or another, not in the least because there is a lot of variation on what society dictates. The expectations are to a significant extent circunstantial.

That is not even much of a problem; such diversity of expectations is often healthy, even necessary.


what consequences or remedy can one find without law and a legal system?

It seems to me that most often they are found by seeking or nurturing alternate social environments and support networks.

"Tribes", if you will.



There are disputes that are not capable of being resolved by the individuals involved.

That is an interesting statement to consider.

Are individuals that powerless over their own destinies? How often, and how should they deal with it when it happens?

Sometimes, no doubt they will lack such power to shape their circunstances and end up having to rely on the intervention of others that have less personal knowledge or investiment on the dispute yet know the decision systems better. It definitely does happen.

Ultimately, though, that amounts to hoping other people to know better or to defend one's interests better than oneself.

That can be a good idea under the right circunstances. It turns out however that one of the most decisive of those circunstances is that the matter in dispute should not be too important. Judicial disputes must be affordable, must be reserved for those matters that are not central enough to our lives to be considered important or decisive.

In short, we must be prepared to deal with the raw reality that judicial decisions have little more than accidental correlation with justice in the best of times.

It is unwise to rely on their wisdom, for they are not supposed to have any.


Any system without a legal system to resolve conflict favors the strongest individual.

As does any system with a legal system, except that the legal system brings the power of the political power with it. It may also delay resolution and raise false hopes to some extent or another.


Having the support of an entity more powerful than any individual entity allows for weaker individuals to find remedy when society recognizes a legal wrong.

It certainly may happen. But not with anything resembling a reliable or worthwhile frequency. In short, it should not be hoped for.

Society should not be expected to reform the individual, and certainly not by enforcing judicial decisions over him. That simply does not work, basically because the individual will feel, usually quite correctly, that laws and judicial decisions fail to take into account who he is and what reasons he could have had.

Instead, individuals must decide to exercise citizenship and open the way for each other of their own accord, without being coerced into obedience of some literally blind law or rule.

No community can truly be coerced into thriving.


I could understand you arguing that our current legal system is not the best, and some other method would be better. But, society needs some legal system.

Maybe it does. But it harms itself greatly when it decides to lend that legal system any degree of importance or significance. Laws are supposed to be a very minor aspect of society, reserved for lost causes and directed towards cutting them before they become bigger lost causes.

The conflict itself is an open wound in society's living tissue, and spending resources on growing it, elaborating it and making a great deal of it is an exercise on masochism and decadence.
 

Curious George

Veteran Member
.

The conflict itself is an open wound in society's living tissue, and spending resources on growing it, elaborating it and making a great deal of it is an exercise on masochism and decadence.

And not addressing the conflict with reason and logic is akin to letting that wound fester.

Whether we use a tribal system or a large democratic republic laws are necessary. Every society has rules by which members of that society must abide. We cannot rely on natural consequences alone.

The more complex our interactions the more complex a legal system is necessary.
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
And not addressing the conflict with reason and logic is akin to letting that wound fester.

Precisely.

I have a hunch that you mean that the legal and judicial systems are a means of addressing the conflict, while I see them as a distraction instead, though.


Whether we use a tribal system or a large democratic republic laws are necessary.

I really don't know whether they are necessary, not any more than I know whether mosquitoes are necessary. That has never been a practical question.

They are unavoidable and perhaps unavoidably hugely over-estimated, though.


Every society has rules by which members of that society must abide.

In the sense that there will be consequences and dispute relating to them? Sure.


We cannot rely on natural consequences alone.

I have no idea of what you mean here. What would a non-natural consequence be?

The creation and mythification of laws and arbiters is a natural consequence as well.


The more complex our interactions the more complex a legal system is necessary.

Again, "unavoidable" is a more realistic word. I'm more interested in discussing whether we should lend a legal system importance and meaning than on whether it should be seen as avoidable or necessary. It will happen, sure. But it can be kept isolated and of little consequence, and IMO it should.
 

Penumbra

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Yes, your post reads to me identically to religious fundamentalism on this issue.

I'm just saying it is unhealthy to work as a lawyer at all often. If one is actually paid for doing so, then moral corruption is all but a given.

Think about it for a bit. What other possible effects to moral perception could law practice have?

Its whole point is to take advantage of rules and laws in order to reach a desired outcome, justice and fairness be darned.

That is, quite simply, legalized moral corruption.

I'm sure so do many others.

That, however, is besides the point.

Same here.

While there are some differences in the nature of the relationship between the citizens and the law and the judicial system in the two countries (the main one being that arbiters are politically assigned instead of elected), I don't think they make much of a difference to the core matter.
No, that part about "justice and fairness be damned" is incorrect. Some lawyers may approach it like that, but that's not a true statement about all lawyers, or perhaps even most.

The point of the profession is to understand the legal system, to have a strong working knowledge of the laws, and then apply that knowledge. Adding other stuff about moral corruption being a given, and justice and fairness being damned, is all just absolutist emotional statements rather than anything coherent.

It's about as rational as saying people shouldn't be engineers, because the whole point is to exploit the workings of nature, therefore it can't lead anywhere other than arrogance and destruction, safety and goodness be damned.

If you - or anyone - ever need legal representation on some issue, it will be because some sort of damage has already happened.

The role of arbiters and lawyers is not to avoid, correct or compensate damage, although that may happen anyway when people are lucky and legal disputes do not go on for too long.

Instead, the role of the legal and judicial systems is simply to resolve disputes.

Not in a fair way necessarily or even often, but simply to resolve them with the backing of the established institutions, so that people may go on with their lives.

Accepting that is IMO far more productive than attempting to see the legal system as something that it is not.

Justice, fairness and above all societal change will only happen outside those fields, which can and will however eventually validate the change when society wants it.

As well they should. But that is attempting to cover a canyon with a bedsheet, really. There is no hope of it actually being enough to transmute an unhealthy activity into a healthy one.
When my mother, who went after corporate corruption for her career was injured seriously in a car accident and had trouble with medical bills, a lawyer helped make that right too, within the confines of the law.

Right now in the United States, one state after another is legalizing gay marriage. Over the past 10 years, the number of states have gone from 0 to almost 20, that allow gay marriage. A lot of that has been because gay couples get a lawyer and sue, and the lawyer argues successfully that state bans on gay marriage violate the US Constitution. One case went to the Supreme Court and now the federal government recognizes all gay marriages from states that allow it. Your statement that societal change will only happen outside of those fields is demonstrably wrong- the first US state legalized it in the courts rather than through legislation, and about half of them since have done it like that, and it has led the charge in change in public perception on LGBT rights.

Many, many lawyers have a strong view of ethics and justice and apply their knowledge in a way that they feel is worthwhile, just like other professions such as engineer or doctor or anything else. Many lawyers do pro bono work, meaning they work for free or at a reduced cost to certain groups that need it. Some lawyers like Ralph Nader devote their whole lives to causes such as consumer protection, environmentalism, and civil rights. They have the understanding of the legal process and years studying the laws that exist, and this knowledge can go to defending victims of injustice, appealing unfair laws, fighting against certain destructive corporate interests, improving civil rights, etc.

It doesn't make any sense to argue that "being a lawyer" is unacceptable or wrong.
 

Badran

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Being a lawyer, or encouraging someone to study Law and earn a living from that.

Some jobs might put people at 'moral crossroads' or face them with difficult choices more often than others, but then that also provides a room for doing morally admirable things more often than most other jobs.

I think it's really lazy when people assume an unwarranted moral high ground towards certain types of jobs like soldiers or lawyers, and ignore clear cases that contradict simplistic and unrealistic notions held towards those jobs.

Particularly considering the crucial role they play in society. I honestly think that these kinds of views are as close as it gets to utter irrelevancy, because they're just so removed from reality it's hard to take them at all seriously.
 

Gjallarhorn

N'yog-Sothep
Whatever violates the rights laid out here:

1. Man has the right to live by his own law— to live in the way that he wills to do:
to work as he will:
to play as he will:
to rest as he will:
to die when and how he will.
2. Man has the right to eat what he will:
to drink what he will:
to dwell where he will:
to move as he will on the face of the earth.
3. Man has the right to think what he will: to speak what he will:
to write what he will:
to draw, paint, carve, etch, mould, build as he will:
to dress as he will.
4. Man has the right to love as he will
"take your fill and will of love as ye will,
when, where, and with whom ye will." —AL. I. 51
5. Man has the right to kill those who would thwart these rights.
So, humanity has the right to do what they do.

Why do people think Crowley was insightful again?
 
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