• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

What Was Israel's Ancient Belief?

Rival

Diex Aie
Staff member
Premium Member
I'm talking more from a scholarly, critical POV, but religious views welcome.

What was the belief system/s of the ancient Hebrew people? We read a lot in the Tanak about the Divine Council, Sons of God, other Gods, spirits etc. and we read about Joshua asking the people to 'put away the Gods your fathers worshipped' upon crossing the Jordan. I have several books containing relevant information but I want to know what information others have, because I'm finding it very confusing.

- El is a generic noun meaning 'God' as far as I know, but some seem to treat it as a proper name for a specific God?

- YHWH is worshipped by Abraham, but claimed only to make his name known to Mose.

- Who are the Sons of God? Are there other Gods in the Hebrew belief system that aren't worshipped?

- Is God the God of the whole word, or just Israel?

- What's the problem with Ba'al?

Etc.
 

Ehav4Ever

Well-Known Member
I'm talking more from a scholarly, critical POV, but religious views welcome.

What was the belief system/s of the ancient Hebrew people? We read a lot in the Tanak about the Divine Council, Sons of God, other Gods, spirits etc. and we read about Joshua asking the people to 'put away the Gods your fathers worshipped' upon crossing the Jordan. I have several books containing relevant information but I want to know what information others have, because I'm finding it very confusing.

- El is a generic noun meaning 'God' as far as I know, but some seem to treat it as a proper name for a specific God?

- YHWH is worshipped by Abraham, but claimed only to make his name known to Mose.

- Who are the Sons of God? Are there other Gods in the Hebrew belief system that aren't worshipped?

- Is God the God of the whole word, or just Israel?

- What's the problem with Ba'al?

Etc.
Greetings,

If you are asking this question from a scholarly/critical point of view then face a few challenges that you would have to resolve.
  1. What was the belief system/s of the ancient Hebrew people? -Answer: It depends on what you define the Hebrew people to be. For example, there are generic terms used in many Middle Eastern cultures to describe people form regions between Egypt and Babylon. The terms used range from Habiru and others. Yet, the pronunciation of the word used in the Hebrew Tanakh to describe Avraham ben-Terah (Abraham) specifically and those eventually came from him was/is prounced "Ivri" with the first letter being a sound that doesn't exist in English. Thus, using the term Hebrew in "Modern English" can easily mean something different than the word "Ivri" meant in the language of the Israeli/Jewish people past and present. Nedt, in terms of what the beleifs of the Ivrim/Ivri people was, past tense, they didn't have what is modernly termed a belief system. Meaning, if one were take the Torah, the most ancient internal description of the Ivri people, one doesn't find the concept of modern religion or belief. This is also held by scholars of Canaanite history. I.e. if you had asked a ancient Canaanite what their religion was/or their beliefs were it wouldn't really calcuate into the western concept.
    • Thus, you would have to determine what you consider to the the primary sources for what a Hebrew was, past tense in the first place. This may force you outside of the realm of what is found in English translation.
  2. We read a lot in the Tanak about the Divine Council, Sons of God, other Gods, spirits etc. - Again, the problem you have is linquistically what were the original terms used in the ancient text of the people being discussed, who has the most information about what those terms mean in the first place? If modern day Jews are the only people who have the most expsure to the text, the culture, the linquistics, etc. then one may have to start there. For example, the concept of "Sons of God" doesn't really equate what the term benei elohim means and one reason is that in Hebrew there are no capital letters. Thus, how does one know the difference between "benei elohim" vs. "Benei Elohim" vs. "benei Elohim?" This leads to your next point.
  3. El is a generic noun meaning 'God' as far as I know, but some seem to treat it as a proper name for a specific God? - this is actually not correct. The term "El" is from the three letter root (א-י-ל) which denotes power or strenght or ability to do. On its own it does not denote diety like the word god does in English. All titles used in ancient Hebrew as names for the Creator are not really names, the way is used in modern language like English, but instead considered by some commentators to be descriptions of attributes that humans experience in reality. Thus, even the sun or the moon can be called an "El" because both are powerful and strong elements of the reality we exist in but the problem is that something created the sun and the moon. Thus, if one got to the point of finding what created everything and even the concept of creation itself then it is course and "El" above all other "Els" meaning it is more powerful than all forms of powers because it created them.
  4. YHWH is worshipped by Abraham, but claimed only to make his name known to Moses - Not really. Again, see the above. The concept of what that name means in the Creator's interaction in reality is what Avraham didn't have a full grasp of. He had a grasp of some other concepts of the Creator. I.e. when the Torah was given at Mount Sinai the Israeli/Jewish people experienced a reality above what Avraham knew for his time. That is partially because of the nature of the claim of a national revelation and also having Moses who had the ability to talk to Hashem any time he wanted without dreams or waking visions. Avraham didn't have this a part of his reality.
  5. Who are the Sons of God? Are there other Gods in the Hebrew belief system that aren't worshipped? - Again, you have to go back to point 2 and 3.
  6. Is God the God of the whole word, or just Israel? - A better way of presenting this is the following. According to the Torah, Hashem created all of reality and the concept of creation. Hashem is not created or subject to anything, including what Hashem created. If Hashem is thus the Source of reality/creation then that means that world we live and everything in it is subject in some way to the Source. Again, this is a linquistic issue with ancient Hebrew and gets lost sometimes in the translation. It is discussed at long length in Jewish texts in Hebrew, Aramaic, Judeo-Arabic, and Yiddish.
  7. What's the problem with Ba'al? - The problem is with falsehood. If someone decides to claim that something is the source of reality and it is actually not, then that can lead to all kinds of problems when working through a reality that ba'al didn't create. Also, there is an idea that ba'al was being used a way of harnessing power that Hashem created in reality as way to put something between those cultures and Hashem. Thus, if I believe that ba'al can protect me from an enemy army or give me way to do the will the Creator and ba'al is the invention of some guy several thousand years ago that is one problem. If Hashem gave the Torah at Mount Sinai in a mass revlation and there is no such thing as a ba'al that can cause problems.
I hope that helps.
 
Last edited:

Jayhawker Soule

-- untitled --
Premium Member
Much depends on how you view Hebrew scripture; specifically, when were its various components authored/redacted and by whom.

Except, of course, for you last question. The problem with Ba'al was that He's full of bull.
 

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
I'm talking more from a scholarly, critical POV, but religious views welcome.

What was the belief system/s of the ancient Hebrew people? We read a lot in the Tanak about the Divine Council, Sons of God, other Gods, spirits etc. and we read about Joshua asking the people to 'put away the Gods your fathers worshipped' upon crossing the Jordan. I have several books containing relevant information but I want to know what information others have, because I'm finding it very confusing.

- El is a generic noun meaning 'God' as far as I know, but some seem to treat it as a proper name for a specific God?
In Hebrew El means god. However, it is interesting that El is also the name of a Canaanite deity. I'll let you reach your own conclusions.
- YHWH is worshipped by Abraham, but claimed only to make his name known to Mose.
The claim is made that Abraham worshiped YHWH but knew him as El Shaddai. If that is the case, then the insertion of the name YHWH in the texts regarding Abraham would be an anachronism.
- Who are the Sons of God? Are there other Gods in the Hebrew belief system that aren't worshipped?
B'nei HaElohim is a rather vague expression. What it means is anyone's guess. Jewish tradition says that it refers to angels.
- Is God the God of the whole word, or just Israel?
He is the sovereign of the whole universe.
- What's the problem with Ba'al?

Etc.
The problem with Ba'al is that he is part of a pantheon. The polytheistic religion of the Canaanites was connected with certain things that were considered immoral, even atrocities, such as temple prostitution and child sacrifice.
 

Ehav4Ever

Well-Known Member
I'm talking more from a scholarly, critical POV, but religious views welcome.

What was the belief system/s of the ancient Hebrew people?
Okay. So, I waited a bit on this but you did ask for a scholarly, critical POV. The following is something I posted a while back in another thread about the use of correct terminology. The following may be a good starting point for this paricular question from a scholarly/critical POV.

1701656268913.png


The importance here is that conceptually and linquistically the word Ivri (עברי) allows for a correct indentification of our ancestors internal self-descriptions rather than the ones that developed external to our language and culture. I also think by clearly relying on our own historical linquistic and cultural elments it helps make the point about the mistakes of those who use the external information to make their own politically charged claims, rather than argue with them about terms they came up with.

Thus, from a scholarly point of view one has to recognize that modern day Jews claim descent from the Ivri (singular)/Ivrim (plural) people. The the problem with the modern term "Hebrew" from English is that is at times used to describe.
  1. A combination of the terms of Habiru/Apiru, Hakau Khasut, and the Ivrim all together. i.e. a generality of virtually several different ethnic groups foreign to the people of Egypt, Babylon, etc.
  2. Specifically and exclusively the Ivrim, the ancestors of modern day Jews.
  3. Various Christian/or Christian inspired groups who in the last ~150 years have claimed the English term Hebrew to describe their ancestors or themselves modernly.
  4. It is interesting to note that in America, in the 1800's, the term Hebrew was very specific and exclusive to describing modern day Jews and the ancestors of modern day Jews.
It must further stated that the term Habiru/Apiru, Hakau Khasut can historically be found to describe various groups of people from the regions that were once known as Canaan, including the Ivrim. Yet, the term Ivri/Ivrim (pronounced as such) was always historically describing the direct ancestors of Jews who followed Avraham ben-Terah or the ancestors of Jews who were known as Benei Yisrael, Yisrael, Yisraelim, or Yehudim.

Thus, when one deals with the linquistic issues of who is being talked about it is easier to determine what they held by.
 

Bthoth

Well-Known Member
I'm talking more from a scholarly, critical POV, but religious views welcome.

What was the belief system/s of the ancient Hebrew people? We read a lot in the Tanak about the Divine Council, Sons of God, other Gods, spirits etc. and we read about Joshua asking the people to 'put away the Gods your fathers worshipped' upon crossing the Jordan. I have several books containing relevant information but I want to know what information others have, because I'm finding it very confusing.

- El is a generic noun meaning 'God' as far as I know, but some seem to treat it as a proper name for a specific God?

- YHWH is worshipped by Abraham, but claimed only to make his name known to Mose.

- Who are the Sons of God? Are there other Gods in the Hebrew belief system that aren't worshipped?

- Is God the God of the whole word, or just Israel?

- What's the problem with Ba'al?

Etc.
cool thread and writing there.

Yes, the same god.

No, none are special above others by any god.

That idea of being chosen or sons of god is found very clearly in egypt as the pharaohs also claimed to be the sons or children of god
 

Ehav4Ever

Well-Known Member
- El is a generic noun meaning 'God' as far as I know, but some seem to treat it as a proper name for a specific God?
Actually, from a linquistic point of view the word el (אל) doens't mean "god." First, the Hebrew language doesn't have capital letters, so there is no such thing as el vs. El or god vs. God. It doesn't exist. You could literally create a translation into English with all lower cases letters and not have a problem with a term that in the ancient Hebrew was not a proper name.

Further, in the linqustic sphere all ancient Hebrew terms are derived from 3 letter roots known as a shoresh (a root). This means that all words that derive from a 3 letter root receives its meaning from the three letter root. That being said, the term el (אל) is derived from the following.

1701665972250.png


Thus, in ancient Hebrew the term el (captital or lower case) was used to describe ANYTHING or ANYONE that either a) had power/strength, or b) that people claimed or ascribed to have strength. Thus, according to the Torah a person, animal, inanimate object, or a concept that either has power or strength or that people consider to have power or strength. There is no intrinsic connection the concept of deity to the word. A person can decide that a particular mighty thing, person, etc. deserves their worship but it doesn't mean they do so because of the word el.

Be aware that the claim from the Torah is that Hashem created everything, including the concept of creation itself, and Hashem was not created by something else, not with something else, and not subject to anything (included what Hashem created). Thus, for that reason a term like (אל) can be used because you are talking about something more powerful than everything in reality. Further to this point, the Hebrew text of the Tanakh sometimes calls Hashem (אל עליון) or loosely translated "The highest of all powers." Denoting that even if you want to call the sun, moon, stars, etc. by the term el, at the end of the day Hashem created all of that.

Now, concerning the Canaanite statues that have been found with designation el to them. You have to go back to the linquistics and what I mentioned before. Of course a statue with the term el transcribed on it can be called an "el" if some human being decides that there is power there somehow. Is it possible that someone considered, for that statue, that its proper name was "el"? It is possible, but again if they did it still begs the question - if they created a statue and it represents a deity what kind of power does the statue have? If it has a power, which one? If it is powerful why did the person have to create the statue in the first place?

That being said, there is a concept found in this part of the world that basically claims that when a person takes a statue (or any material item for that matter) and worships it they are not claiming that the statue "created the universe/reality." Obviously, if a person created the statue then the statue couldn't have craeted the universe. Yet, the idea that some had/have is that they are taking a particular power in the universe and harnessing it by way of the created object. The term focusing could also be used since the statue because an element of focus for something they potentially can't see or harness otherwise. It would be like me wanting to harness the power of thermodynamics when I was in university trying to pass my engineering course load and creating a statue/symbol that I use to focus my attention/or harness the power of thermodymnamics. Of course, if this were my goal I could only do it symbolically or conceptually. There is no way for me to package the physical reality that we describe as thermodynamics and place all of that into a statue or a material item.

Lastly, going back to the critical POV you have to aware of the following.
  1. The ancient Canaanites left very little information to describe the vast majority of their ideas.
  2. Western scholars often have to use non-Canaanite sources to understand the huge gaps that exist in ATTEMPTING to understand a dead culture like the Canaanite culture.
  3. Jewish texts are one of the ways that scholars attempt to address this gap because we Jews descend from people who had contact with the Canaanites.
  4. It is widely understood that the Canaanites didn't hold by concepts held in modern western thought and thus, ideas like religions and gods in the way that westerners understand them don't appear to have existed thousands of years ago amongt the Canaanites.
The following may help in understanding what I mean.

1701666490901.png

1701666517660.png

1701666533709.png


I addressed other scholarly views on this in this thread.

 

Bthoth

Well-Known Member
Actually, from a linquistic point of view the word el (אל) doens't mean "god." First, the Hebrew language doesn't have capital letters, so there is no such thing as el vs. El or god vs. God. It doesn't exist.
Many beliefs existed before Hebrew. The language does not rule what is god.

Monotheism was in existence in egypt by ahkenatan before hebrew even existed.
I addressed other scholarly views on this in this thread.

you addressed your opinion as accept by the scholars that wrote the opinion.

What did you share that covers the scope that many accepted a singular god before hebrew existed?

Moses himself was specifically pursuing exodus during the very time period of the schism in egypt to monotheism. Likewise, the levant was the new kingdom of egypt before any exodus.
 

Ehav4Ever

Well-Known Member
Actually, in hebrew, it does.
Actually, it doesn't as I showed above.

The reason is due to how ancient Hebrew works, The shoresh for (אל) is (א-י-ל) or (א-ו-ל) both of which only means "power, strength, or the ability to do." It is the same reason that (איל) is also derived from the same root but means a "ram" i.e. an animal. Also, in the Torah human judges are also called (אלהים) which would not be possible if the word means what the English word "god" means. In English, judges are not called gods.

For example,

1701668460219.png


The term (האלהים) doesn't mean, take them to the god/gods. It is known to mean, take them to the judges. This is expalined in the Talmud Bavli, Sanhedrin 56. The same kind of statement is made in other places in the Torah.

What I will say is that in MODERN HEBREW, it means what god means in English. That is not how it worked in ancient Hebrew.

I hope that helps.
 
Last edited:

Ehav4Ever

Well-Known Member
Many beliefs existed before Hebrew. The language does not rule what is god.
The OP didn't ask about beleifs. Also, the OP asked about what a particular group of people held by and the OP asked from the scholarly, critical POV. Thus, since the OP was asking about what the people who spoke/wrote in ancient Hebrew it is relevant to the OP to deal with the topic from a scholarly, critical POV. Thus, the language rules what Hebrew words mean.

I agree with you that Hebrew does not determine what English words mean.
 

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
Actually, it doesn't as I showed above.

The reason is due to how ancient Hebrew works, The shoresh for (אל) is (א-י-ל) or (א-ו-ל) both of which only means "power, strength, or the ability to do." It is the same reason that (איל) is also derived from the same root but means a "ram" i.e. an animal. Also, in the Torah human judges are also called (אלהים) which would not be possible if the word means what the English word "god" means. In English, judges are called gods.

For example,

View attachment 85279

The term (האלהים) doesn't mean, take them to the god/gods. It is known to mean, take them to the judges. This is expalined in the Talmud Bavli, Sanhedrin 56. The same kind of statement is made in other places in the Torah.

What I will say is that in MODERN HEBREW, it means what god means in English. That is not how it worked in ancient Hebrew.

I hope that helps.
HaElohim is a different word. We were discussing El. Would you like to try again?
 

Ehav4Ever

Well-Known Member
HaElohim is a different word. We were discussing El. Would you like to try again?
I already detailed for Rival what the root of (אל) was and how that root doesn't on its own mean what the word "god" means in English. Discussing what (האלהים) was an extension of what I was explaining to Rival because the term (האלהים) is also used to describe the Creator, the malachim, and people similar to how (אל) also used to describe anything that has power or strength. Both (אל) and (אלהים) are linquinstically derived from the same source in ancient Hebrew.

Thus, further to the point in English the word god only means one thing, deity. Most English speakers in English would not call a human judge a god. In ancient Hebrew the term (אל) doesn't mean god, on its own. It can be used to describe the English concept of a god/deity but it can also describe something that is not a deity.

As shown below concerning the etymology of the English word god and how it only has one basic meaning.

1701669780364.png
 

Ehav4Ever

Well-Known Member
To further my point about the linquistics of ancient Hebrew and how the language worked, see the following.

Etymological Dictionary of Biblical Hebrew: Based on the Commentaries of Rabbi Samson Raphael Hirsch Page 9
1701670533744.png


Also, from a lexicon perspective.
1701670842274.png


Further, even in modern Hebrew this is understood. The following is from a modern Hebrew dictionary used here in Israel. This first one shows how the word (אלהים) can be used to describe the Creator as well as regular human judges, and Torah based human judges.

1701671260848.png


Below the same dictionary describes that (אל) denotes power, strength, the ability to do, and also makes a linquistic connection with the term (אלהים).

1701671415777.png


This is why I say that if you want to understand the concepts of what Rival asked about in the OP you have to address the linquistic issues in detail. Otherwise one is simply using a foreign language to describe something that is more detailed and nuanced than the foreign word denotes.

Thus, like I stated before. In most forms of English the term god means specifically deity, something of worship. In Englsh, the term god can be capetilized and lower cased to make a distinction like god vs. God. Hebrew has no capital and lower case letters. There is no way to capalize a Hebrew word to make a disctinction in its definition.

The the term (אל) can used to describe anything, and I mean anything, that is claimed to have power/strength or actually does. It can be human, it can be animal, a river, a concept, a deity, anything. It is not specific to the concept of diety/worship. Thus, when the Torah uses the word, in Hebrew, one has to be aware of these linquistic facts. Thus, saying there are no other gods except God in English means one specific thing about there being no other deities. Trying to say the same thing in Hebrew doesn't work out in the same way and is often expressed in a different way.

Knowing this linquistic fact, which I am supporting with evidence from how the language works, one can more easily understand what is meant in ancient Hebrew in places where in English translation it is not clear.

In order to test what I am saying, take everything I posted to a rabbi who is fluent in ancient and modern Hebrew, a Jew who is fluent in ancient and modern Hebrew, or a scholar of ancient Hebrew and see if I what I am talking about is true.
 

Attachments

  • 1701671110437.png
    1701671110437.png
    107.2 KB · Views: 61
  • 1701671370931.png
    1701671370931.png
    56 KB · Views: 67
Last edited:

Ehav4Ever

Well-Known Member
You switched words.
No, I discussed how something works linquistically. (אל) and (אלהים) are both terms derived from the same shoreshim and from the same cognates. This is why in ancient Hebrew (אל), (אלהים), (אלוה), etc. all are connected linquistically. I actually presented this in post #8 of my response to Rival. She asked for scholarly, critical POV and that is what I am providing. I.e. an evidence based proof for what I stated.
 

Ehav4Ever

Well-Known Member
No, a plural word doesn't describe a singular Creator.
Actually, the term word (האלהים) is also used in the "Hebrew" text of the Tanakh to describe only Hashem in a singular sense. Here are a couple of examples.

1701675146215.png

1701675131847.png

Devarim 4:35 (Translation) You were shown so you would know that Hashem He is HaElohim there no other with him/beside him/etc.

1701675501940.png

1st Shmuel 18:39 (Translation) And all the people feared and fell on their faces saying "Hashem He is HaElohim He is HaElohim."

Further, ancient Jewish sources describes what the terms used in the "Hebrew" Tanakh even mean in regards to designations used to describe Hashem as the Source of Creation with no other being with Hashem in control of the process.
 

Attachments

  • 1701675106483.png
    1701675106483.png
    10.9 KB · Views: 61
Last edited:

Ehav4Ever

Well-Known Member
No, a plural word doesn't describe a singular Creator.
Further, numerous Jewish sources discuss how the term (אלהים) when used to described Hashem is describing the concept of justice as well as the powers/plural of Hashem in regards to reality. This is expressed by Ibn Ezra, Rambam, Malbim, Ramhal, and others.

Further, this is what Seforno states on the topic.

1701676082558.png


Loose translation, the plural of (אלהים) is used to teach that he is the source of all elements of reality. He further describes how it is a term also used for Torah based judges.
 
Top