What Was Israel's Ancient Belief?

[Ehav4Ever]

The text describes, amongst other things, the relationship between the heart and the hands. It's attributed to Abraham. It's not a dictionary in the ordinary sense of the word, but a dictionary of the language itself, a description of the internal structure of the language. It's content is unlike any of the Rabbincal texts I've come across. There are several versions of it, suggesting that additions have been made by later authors.

Also, please provide information that your description of it isn't just someone's opinion but has some historical basis. Thanks.

 

[Ebionite]

Also, what evidence do you have this dictionary you are referencing wasn't also someone's opinion?

Because of it's internal consistency. Heart is leb, which has a value of 32. Hands are 2 sets of five fingers. 2^5 = 32.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

Because of it's internal consistency. Heart is leb, which has a value of 32. Hands are 2 sets of five fingers. 2^5 = 32.

That isn't evidence that you have seen/have access to a dictionary that date back before 400 CE. Can you please provide pictures of it and information that proves it isn't just someone's opinion. Thanks.

 

[Ebionite]

Please show pictures of this dictionary you talking about and information that proves the version you use/describe comes from prior to 400 CE.

Your level of proof isn't important to me. If you were familiar with the text then you would have recognised it from the description that I've given you.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

Your level of proof isn't important to me. If you were familiar with the text then you would have recognised it from the description that I've given you.

I know my level of proof isn't important to you. I never claimed it was. I just find it strange that you can't show pictures of what you are talking about. You brought it up as if it was something special. That would be like me claiming that I have access to a 800 year old Torah scroll and then making a fuss if someone asked for a picture. If I don't want to show such a thing I wouldn't even bring it up.

Either way, if you don't want to provide a picture of it and information about it then we can just push that off the table. I will continue to respond to Rival's questions. Cheers.

 

[Ebionite]

I just find it strange that you can't show pictures of what you are talking about.

I don't think that it would bring anything of value to the table.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

For those watching this thread. I feel I need to detail something. When I state that the Talmud is the oldest exhaustive written source of information about the Hebrew language it isn't just of the wind that I am making that claim.

Let's say that a person wants to claim that the Sefer Yetzirah is an older exhaustive written source of information about the Hebrew language this would be false. Further, if one wants to claim that the Sefer Yetzirah is the oldest non-Rabbinical/Talmudic dictionary/lexicon/etc. of the Tanakh this would also be false. Both would be false for the following reasons.

1. The Sefer Yetzirah is very short and most modern versions of it have commentary by rabbis/talmudic in nature descriptions of what the language in the text even means.
2. All English translations of the Sefer Yetzirah in one form of the other are based on what Talmudic rabbis stated about both the language of the Tanakh and also the language of the Yetzirah Sefirah.
3. The Sefer Yetzirah is not a dictionary, and it is definately not a dictionary of the entire Tanakh. It also does not address the grammer of the entire Tanakh.

For example, here is my copy of the text. You notice how small the book is and most of the text is a commentary for what the original text even means. The actual text, that is not commentary, could probably fit in a book of about 20 pages or so.

You'll notice that it didn't take me long to pull out my copy and give some details about it.

Further, all commentaries of the Sefer Yetzirah were made by Talmudic rabbis and the original Sefer Yetzirah is discussed in the Talmud and is known that the original doesn't exist but that the current text is. In terms of scolarly views about the origin of the texts, here goes. You will notice that the origin of the text, to the non-Jewish world, comes from Talmudic rabbis and prior to that point it would have been all oral.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

I don't think that it would bring anything of value to the table.

Don't worry. I already brought it to the table. I think it has a lot of value based on the previous conversation about where the knowledge of Hebrew comes from in the modern era.

 

[Ebionite]

Don't worry. I already brought it to the table. I think it has a lot of value based on the previous conversation about where the knowledge of Hebrew comes from in the modern era.

If you know what the source of the knowledge is then you're in a better position to find meaning from the world as it is today.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

I'm talking more from a scholarly, critical POV, but religious views welcome.

What was the belief system/s of the ancient Hebrew people?

In connection to what I stated earlier the following videos may help.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

- What's the problem with Ba'al?

Sorry for the long delay.

One of the answers I find interesting for this is the following. Be aware that this addresses what the problem with Jews turning towards ba'al was.

(Rambam, Letter to the Sages of Marseilles, France) (Translation from A Maimonides Reader by Isadore Twersky, Behrman House Inc. 1989 494 pp. [page 465])

"This is why our kingdom was lost and our Temple was destroyed and why we were brought to this; for our fathers sinned and are no more because they found many books dealing with these themes of the star gazers, these things being the root of Avodah Zara, as we have made clear in Laws Concerning Idolatry. They erred and were drawn after them, imagining them to be glorious science and to be of great utility. They did not busy themselves with the art of war or with the conquest of lands, but imagined that those studies would help them. Therefore the prophets called them “fools and dolts” (Jer. 4:22). And truly fools they were, “for they walked after confused things that do not profit” (I Sam. 12:21 and Jer. 2:8)."

Also of note:

Mishnah Torah - Hilchoth Avodah Zara 1:1 and 2:1

1:1 - During the times of Enosh, mankind made a great mistake, and the wise men of that generation gave thoughtless counsel. Enosh himself was one of those who erred.

Their mistake was as follows: They said Hashem created stars and spheres with which to control the world. He placed them on high and treated them with honor, making them servants who minister before Him. Accordingly, it is fitting to praise and glorify them and to treat them with honor. [They perceived] this to be the will of Hashem, blessed be He, that they magnify and honor those whom He magnified and honored, just as a king desires that the servants who stand before him be honored. Indeed, doing so is an expression of honor to the king.

After conceiving of this notion, they began to construct temples to the stars and offer sacrifices to them. They would praise and glorify them with words, and prostrate themselves before them, because by doing so, they would - according to their false conception - be fulfilling the will of Hashem.

2:2 The essence of the commandment [forbidding] the worship of false powers is not to serve any of the creations, not an angel, a sphere, or a star, none of the four fundamental elements, nor any entity created from them. Even if the person worshiping knows that ‘ה is the [true] Power of reality and serves the creation in the manner in which Enosh and the people of his generation worshiped [the stars] originally, he is considered to be an idol worshiper.

The Torah warns us about this, saying [Deuteronomy 4:19]: "Lest you lift your eyes heavenward and see the sun, the moon, and the stars... [and bow down and worship them], the entities which Hashem apportioned to all the nations." This implies that you might inquire with "the eye of the heart" and it might appear to you that these entities control the world, having been apportioned by Hashem to all the nations to be alive, to exist, and not to cease existence, as is the pattern of [the other creations with] the world. Therefore, you might say that it is worthy to bow down to them and worship them.

For this reason, [Deuteronomy 11:16] commands: "Be very careful that your heart not be tempted." This implies that the thoughts of your heart should not lead you astray to worship these and make them an intermediary between you and the Creator.

The worshipers of false powers/dieties/etc. have composed many texts concerning their service, [describing] what is the essence of their service, what practices are involved, and what are its statutes. The Holy One, blessed be He, has commanded us not to read those books at all, nor to think about them or any matters involved with them.

It is even forbidden to look at the image of an idol, as [Leviticus 19:4] states: "Do not turn to the idols." In this regard, [Deuteronomy 12:30] states: "[Be careful]... lest you seek to find out about their powers/deities/etc., saying, 'How did they serve them.' This prohibits inquiring about the nature of their service even if you, yourself, do not serve them. This matter will ultimately cause you to turn and worship it as they do, as [the above verse continues]: "so that I will do the same."

Later in chapter three the Rambam mentions.

The worship of false powers/deities/concepts/etc. is not the only subject to which we are forbidden to pay attention; rather, we are warned not to consider any thought which will cause us to uproot one of the fundamentals of the Torah. We should not turn our minds to these matters, think about them, or be drawn after the thoughts of our hearts.

In general, people have limited powers of understanding, and not all minds are capable of appreciating the truth in its fullness. [Accordingly,] were a person to follow the thoughts of his heart, it is possible that he would destroy the world because of his limited understanding.

I hope that helps.

 

[paarsurrey]

What Was Israel's Ancient Belief?​

I'm talking more from a scholarly, critical POV, but religious views welcome.

What was the belief system/s of the ancient Hebrew people? We read a lot in the Tanak about the Divine Council, Sons of God, other Gods, spirits etc. and we read about Joshua asking the people to 'put away the Gods your fathers worshipped' upon crossing the Jordan. I have several books containing relevant information but I want to know what information others have, because I'm finding it very confusing.

- El is a generic noun meaning 'God' as far as I know, but some seem to treat it as a proper name for a specific God?

- YHWH is worshipped by Abraham, but claimed only to make his name known to Mose.

- Who are the Sons of God? Are there other Gods in the Hebrew belief system that aren't worshipped?

- Is God the God of the whole word, or just Israel?

- What's the problem with Ba'al?

Etc.

the ancient Hebrew people

From Abraham to Moses, I understand, they spoke Arabic and or Aramaic and Hebrew was born some hundred years after Moses:

"Hebrew developed from Phoenician and only emerged as a distinct language in the 10th century BC, while Moses lived earlier, in the 13th century BC; and the laws of the Torah were composed much later, in the Persian period (5th century BC)"

Did Moses Write the Torah? – Israel My Glory

israelmyglory.org

So, no ancient "Hebrews" existed from Abraham to Moses, please, right?
Isn't the idea of the "Hebrew" and or the "Hebrews", therefore, from the "Zionism" , please, right?

Regards

 

[RabbiO]

What Was Israel's Ancient Belief?​

From Abraham to Moses, I understand, they spoke Arabic and or Aramaic and Hebrew was born some hundred years after Moses:

"Hebrew developed from Phoenician and only emerged as a distinct language in the 10th century BC, while Moses lived earlier, in the 13th century BC; and the laws of the Torah were composed much later, in the Persian period (5th century BC)"

Did Moses Write the Torah? – Israel My Glory

israelmyglory.org

So, no ancient "Hebrews" existed from Abraham to Moses, please, right?
Isn't the idea of the "Hebrew" and or the "Hebrews", therefore, from the "Zionism" , please, right?

Regards

I could ask why you chose the website you cite as an authoritative source. I’ll leave that for another day. Instead I’ll ask how you could quote from an article which either you did not read completely or you did not inderstand. The thrust of the article is that the position you are espousing is 100% wrong.

 

[River Sea]

Actually, from a linquistic point of view the word el (אל) doens't mean "god." First, the Hebrew language doesn't have capital letters, so there is no such thing as el vs. El or god vs. God. It doesn't exist. You could literally create a translation into English with all lower cases letters and not have a problem with a term that in the ancient Hebrew was not a proper name.

Further, in the linqustic sphere all ancient Hebrew terms are derived from 3 letter roots known as a shoresh (a root). This means that all words that derive from a 3 letter root receives its meaning from the three letter root. That being said, the term el (אל) is derived from the following.

View attachment 85274

Thus, in ancient Hebrew the term el (captital or lower case) was used to describe ANYTHING or ANYONE that either a) had power/strength, or b) that people claimed or ascribed to have strength. Thus, according to the Torah a person, animal, inanimate object, or a concept that either has power or strength or that people consider to have power or strength. There is no intrinsic connection the concept of deity to the word. A person can decide that a particular mighty thing, person, etc. deserves their worship but it doesn't mean they do so because of the word el.

Be aware that the claim from the Torah is that Hashem created everything, including the concept of creation itself, and Hashem was not created by something else, not with something else, and not subject to anything (included what Hashem created). Thus, for that reason a term like (אל) can be used because you are talking about something more powerful than everything in reality. Further to this point, the Hebrew text of the Tanakh sometimes calls Hashem (אל עליון) or loosely translated "The highest of all powers." Denoting that even if you want to call the sun, moon, stars, etc. by the term el, at the end of the day Hashem created all of that.

Now, concerning the Canaanite statues that have been found with designation el to them. You have to go back to the linquistics and what I mentioned before. Of course a statue with the term el transcribed on it can be called an "el" if some human being decides that there is power there somehow. Is it possible that someone considered, for that statue, that its proper name was "el"? It is possible, but again if they did it still begs the question - if they created a statue and it represents a deity what kind of power does the statue have? If it has a power, which one? If it is powerful why did the person have to create the statue in the first place?

That being said, there is a concept found in this part of the world that basically claims that when a person takes a statue (or any material item for that matter) and worships it they are not claiming that the statue "created the universe/reality." Obviously, if a person created the statue then the statue couldn't have craeted the universe. Yet, the idea that some had/have is that they are taking a particular power in the universe and harnessing it by way of the created object. The term focusing could also be used since the statue because an element of focus for something they potentially can't see or harness otherwise. It would be like me wanting to harness the power of thermodynamics when I was in university trying to pass my engineering course load and creating a statue/symbol that I use to focus my attention/or harness the power of thermodymnamics. Of course, if this were my goal I could only do it symbolically or conceptually. There is no way for me to package the physical reality that we describe as thermodynamics and place all of that into a statue or a material item.

Lastly, going back to the critical POV you have to aware of the following.

1. The ancient Canaanites left very little information to describe the vast majority of their ideas.
2. Western scholars often have to use non-Canaanite sources to understand the huge gaps that exist in ATTEMPTING to understand a dead culture like the Canaanite culture.
3. Jewish texts are one of the ways that scholars attempt to address this gap because we Jews descend from people who had contact with the Canaanites.
4. It is widely understood that the Canaanites didn't hold by concepts held in modern western thought and thus, ideas like religions and gods in the way that westerners understand them don't appear to have existed thousands of years ago amongt the Canaanites.

The following may help in understanding what I mean.

View attachment 85275
View attachment 85277
View attachment 85278

I addressed other scholarly views on this in this thread.

The Importance of Correct/Accurate Terminology in Discussing Torah/Yahaduth

I plan on making this into a reference thread. That way I don't have to repeat the same information or better yet allow me to refer others to this. The first point I would like to make is about the English term "Hebrew" and how it can be confused some incorrect "westernized" concepts. There was...

www.religiousforums.com

@Ehav4Ever @Bthoth

@Ehav4Ever what are your thoughts about RA?

 

[joelr]

I'm talking more from a scholarly, critical POV, but religious views welcome.

What was the belief system/s of the ancient Hebrew people? We read a lot in the Tanak about the Divine Council, Sons of God, other Gods, spirits etc. and we read about Joshua asking the people to 'put away the Gods your fathers worshipped' upon crossing the Jordan. I have several books containing relevant information but I want to know what information others have, because I'm finding it very confusing.

- El is a generic noun meaning 'God' as far as I know, but some seem to treat it as a proper name for a specific God?

- YHWH is worshipped by Abraham, but claimed only to make his name known to Mose.

- Who are the Sons of God? Are there other Gods in the Hebrew belief system that aren't worshipped?

- Is God the God of the whole word, or just Israel?

- What's the problem with Ba'al?

Etc.

El was the Canaanite supreme deity and Yahweh was under him for a time. Yahweh was just a national God. Supreme gods came largely from the Persian religion (the idea), 2nd Temple Period.

It changed a lot during the Persian occupation because Persian was very nice to the Hebrew people and the Persian beliefs influenced the Hebrew beliefs. Then the Greeks really changed everything which shows up in the NT. Aquinas used Platonic philosophy to refine Yahweh.

So it was a slow progression.

A really good book on the early beliefs is God: An Anatomy by professor
Stavrakopoulou, a Hebrew Bible scholar who is not a believer so she translates the Hebrew as it should be translated, not in a way that conforms to modern ideas about what God is. She tries to illuminate the early beliefs.


The Sons of God is just a bunch of divine beings, one being Satan in that scene. Before the Persian influence (they had a devil at war with a supreme God), Satan and Yahweh worked together many times, there was no conflict.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

@Ehav4Ever @Bthoth

@Ehav4Ever what are your thoughts about RA?

It depends. Do mean the ancient Egyptian concept of:

If you are talking about the above we would have review ancient Egyptians documents concerned what the ancient Egyptians beleived it to be? We would have to take research ancient Egyptian writing in the language they wrote it and determine what they thought about it. Further, we would have to see where they [ancient Egyptians] claimed their information about it came from and whether that information had any value in perserviving their culture. We would further have to determine if such a thing in reality a) claimed it created all of reality and b) where that information comes from of its claim. I.e. personal revelation, legends about an actual person that were changed to something more, or the claim of an Egyptian priestly class.

 

[River Sea]

@Ehav4Ever what are your thoughts about RA?

It depends. Do mean the ancient Egyptian concept of:

View attachment 87442

If you are talking about the above we would have review ancient Egyptians documents concerned what the ancient Egyptians beleived it to be? We would have to take research ancient Egyptian writing in the language they wrote it and determine what they thought about it. Further, we would have to see where they [ancient Egyptians] claimed their information about it came from and whether that information had any value in perserviving their culture. We would further have to determine if such a thing in reality a) claimed it created all of reality and b) where that information comes from of its claim. I.e. personal revelation, legends about an actual person that were changed to something more, or the claim of an Egyptian priestly class.

The Attachment in @Ehav4Ever

@Bharat Jhunjhunwala you were thinking that Ra is where again? Wait you'll have RA in KMT, or would you have RA in Indus Valley? I think you'll have RA at KMT due to you also have it that, Yadavas went to Indus Valley? And the RA understanding happen at KMT or was there a RA understanding at Indus Valley too?
@Tamino understands Ra as sun from KMT

Nun​

Egyptian god
Also known as: Nu
The Editors of Encyclopaedia Britannica
Nun, oldest of the ancient Egyptian gods and father of Re, the sun god. Nun’s name means “primeval waters,” and he represented the waters of chaos out of which Re-Atum began creation.

The sun god Re (Ra), one of the creator gods of ancient Egypt. (more). Re, in ancient Egyptian religion, god of the sun and creator god. Re | Description, Meaning, & Facts

@Tamino @Bthoth

Let's see if I can write using the words nun or nu, Re is also Ra

@River Sea writes: Sun is the father who's RA or RE. Water comes from in light Re. I read online that Because Nun’s name means “primeval waters,” and represented the waters of chaos out of which Re-Atum began creation.

I'll need to look up Atum. Shall I do that now.
Re
Egyptian god
Also known as: Atum-Re, Chnum-Re, Pra, Ra, Re-Atum (look at all these names)

@River Sea copy past from Re | Description, Meaning, & Facts

What is Re the god of?​

What is Re's origin?​

Who is Re related to?​

Re
The sun god Re (Ra), one of the creator gods of ancient Egypt.
Re, in ancient Egyptian religion, god of the sun and creator god. He was believed to travel across the sky in his solar bark and, during the night, to make his passage in another bark through the underworld, where, in order to be born again for the new day, he had to vanquish the evil serpent Apopis (Apepi). As one of the creator gods, he rose from the ocean of chaos on the primeval hill, creating himself and then in turn engendering eight other gods.

"Father of" more in the sense of being his elder. Though the Book of the Celestial Cow does address Nun as Father of Ra.

I went over board on this, I almost wonder if I should delete this. Let me if you think this is going over board.

@Tamino Nun as Father of Ra
As a reminder to myself: Sun god RE or Ra. So Father is a sense of being his elder, so basically that's what father means is elder and I do recall 24 elders so do KMT also have 24 elders similar to ribs however during time at KMT not of yet York side of freemason as that had 24 ribs elders over the Abrahamic bosom, or did KMT have that even though not of yet name freemason - if so how come? Didn't Pharaohs' have freemason or another name before name freemason. However @Bharat Jhunjhunwala will claim Ra from Indus Valley? Help me here please? Horus lost an eye, because of why? Two eyes on the other side of membrane. One eye on this side of membrane. However @Bharat Jhunjhunwala claims no one eye in Hinduism?

That info I got from @Yokefellow I'll find slide

York Rite Freemasonry

Most Holy Place. Science and Scripture combined! Comparing Bible verses to Cell Biology, Human Physiology, DNA, Atoms and more!

www.mostholyplace.com

screenshot it

This is thread: What Was Israel's Ancient Belief?

Oh, Ancient belief of Israel?

Israel is of the Levant land of KMT or where? What color of soil, continue black soil or red soil from KMT or another type of soil?
What is Lucifer's body, lucifer bearer of light
@Bharat Jhunjhunwala has it that God was asking Adam to eat from tree
From slide: Serpent Rises up Spine like Kundalini to Crown Chakra

PDF
AN INTERPRETATION OF ADAM’S FALL IN THE LIGHTOF FAR EASTERN PSYCHOLOGY

@Bharat Jhunjhunwala

ABSTRACT

One must not pursue a concordism or discordism of theology and science but their dialogue towards creating a mutual understanding. We make an effort in this direction by reinterpreting certain Hebrew words in the narrative of Adam; and by brining in sights from far eastern psychology into play. The conventional understanding is that the creation of Adam from “dust” was the beginning of “spiritual mortality.” However, Adam transgressed and did not follow spiritual morality. We rely on the far eastern narrative of creation and propose that “dust” may refer to the implanting of negative qualities by God to break the primitive bliss and take the first steps to “draw all people to myself” (John 12:32). The conventional understanding is that God prohibited Adam and Eve from eating of the Tree of Knowledge. We note that God had placed the Tree in the middle of the Garden. We suggest that God did this so that Adam would see and partake of it. Also, Adam had not eaten of the Tree till the alleged prohibition was pronounced. There was no occasion to prohibit him from doing what he was not doing anyways. We propose that God wanted them to eat of the Tree. Their error was in making delay in eating of it and then of trying to devour the Tree. The conventional understanding is that the speaking serpent is correlated with near eastern depiction of serpents as adversaries. The role of the serpent, however, was also positive since it led Adam and Eve to eat of the Tree and to the opening of their eyes. We propose that the serpent was the far eastern symbolism of the unconscious impulses emanating from one’s own spinal cord. We find that these interpretations make the Biblical narrative sync with science and also give it a positive ambience. These interpretations are consistent with the majesty of Jesus Christ in helping establish a conscious connection between man and God. The process by which these far eastern narratives may have entered the Bible require further investigations.

An Interpretation of Adam’s Fall in the Light of Far Eastern Psychology

One must not pursue a concordism or discordism of theology and science but their dialogue toward creating a mutual understanding. We make an effort in this direction by reinterpreting certain Hebrew words in the narrative of Adam; and by bringing

www.academia.edu

 

[Bharat Jhunjhunwala]

The serpent in garden of Eden, mountsinai, plagues, the nehushtan, and Isaiah... All refer to our spinal cord

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Your level of proof isn't important to me.

^ speaks volumes

 

[Tomef]

I'm talking more from a scholarly, critical POV, but religious views welcome.

What was the belief system/s of the ancient Hebrew people? We read a lot in the Tanak about the Divine Council, Sons of God, other Gods, spirits etc. and we read about Joshua asking the people to 'put away the Gods your fathers worshipped' upon crossing the Jordan. I have several books containing relevant information but I want to know what information others have, because I'm finding it very confusing.

- El is a generic noun meaning 'God' as far as I know, but some seem to treat it as a proper name for a specific God?

- YHWH is worshipped by Abraham, but claimed only to make his name known to Mose.

- Who are the Sons of God? Are there other Gods in the Hebrew belief system that aren't worshipped?

- Is God the God of the whole word, or just Israel?

- What's the problem with Ba'al?

Etc.

David Rosenberg has the idea that the idea of a single god it’s possible to have a personal relationship with evolved out of the tendency of Sumerians to have their own, individual gods (as well as the city gods etc), which in turn seems to have evolved from the use of votive statues.