What was the Death of Jesus about?

[PruePhillip]

I was simply making the point that the Christian God is not the Jewish God, despite all claims to the contrary, since the Jewish God has the covenant and is not triune.

And as I understand it another difference is that in Judaism you don't need an intermediary to pray to God ─ you just do it.

I am not too bothered about what Jews believed. Christianity was a Jewish phenomenon
in the First Century. Many Jews understood that Jesus was the Messiah. And seeing the
end of Israel confirmed that - some of the Old Testament writers said that the Messiah's
coming would be the end of the Temple and Israel.

Had this discussion with a Jew on this forum a few weeks back. I asked him was he OK
with the Messiah in Zechariah 9 and 12, the conqueror who would destroy the nations
that come against Israel. He went along with all that - but then I asked him, "then who is
this Messiah that the Jews will mourn for - seeing he is the lowly man they once pierced"?
And that was the end of the conversation.

 

[PruePhillip]

It's not mentioned in the bible at all, though from memory the three are mentioned together at at least one point in the NT. Bear in mind the Eastern Orthodox Church is Trinitarian on the same footing as the West, and didn't finally break with Rome till 1054.

That's stuff I have never taken an interest in - it's in the same league as Catholic Indulgences,
Mary Queen of Heaven, idols and Papal Infallibility. There's probably just one Catholic mentioned
in the New Testament, and that was Diotrephes in John 3. He was likely the first 'Bishop' mentioned
in the Catholic archives.

anyhow, I have answered your question to the best of my ability.

 

[blü 2]

"then who is
this Messiah that the Jews will mourn for - seeing he is the lowly man they once pierced"?
And that was the end of the conversation.

The Suffering Servant again, of course. You may have noticed him when you came past Isaiah 52:13 and so on into 53.

The Suffering Servant is of course the nation of Israel.

Mystery solved!

 

[PruePhillip]

The Suffering Servant again, of course. You may have noticed him when you came past Isaiah 52:13 and so on into 53.

The Suffering Servant is of course the nation of Israel.

Mystery solved!

It's a problem - this business of the Gentile seeing the Messiah as the Jews see Him.
Jesus said Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles until the Gentiles time
is fulfilled. Used to wonder what this 'fulfilled' meant - sounded menacing because
finally 'next year in Jerusalem' has really happened, and this city is back in Jewish
hands.
And I think it's this - that the Gentiles will see Jesus as the Jews saw him.

 

[PruePhillip]

The Suffering Servant again, of course. You may have noticed him when you came past Isaiah 52:13 and so on into 53.

The Suffering Servant is of course the nation of Israel.

Mystery solved!

The Jew celebrate their Messiah coming to conquer the nations that come against
Israel - and they find it's the same one they persecuted and killed.
Not sure how you shoehorn Israel into that figure.

 

[blü 2]

It's a problem - this business of the Gentile seeing the Messiah as the Jews see Him.
Jesus said Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles until the Gentiles time
is fulfilled. Used to wonder what this 'fulfilled' meant - sounded menacing because
finally 'next year in Jerusalem' has really happened, and this city is back in Jewish
hands.
And I think it's this - that the Gentiles will see Jesus as the Jews saw him.

It will all become clearer when I tell you Jesus is mentioned nowhere in the Tanakh.

Jesus no more fits the concept of a Jewish messiah than you do, being neither a civil, military or religious leader of the Jews nor anointed by the Jewish priesthood; and the Suffering Servant refers to the nation of Israel, as I've mentioned.

So relax.

 

[PruePhillip]

It will all become clearer when I tell you Jesus is mentioned nowhere in the Tanakh.

Jesus no more fits the concept of a Jewish messiah than you do, being neither a civil, military or religious leader of the Jews nor anointed by the Jewish priesthood; and the Suffering Servant refers to the nation of Israel, as I've mentioned.

So relax.

Now, the New Testament was written solely by Jews. But wot if they were
wrong? Wot if ALL the Redeemer passages in the Old Testament were
about Israel and not the Messiah. Could Israel have been waiting for itself?

Zechariah 9:10

Rejoice greatly, Daughter Zion!
Shout, Daughter Jerusalem!
See, your king comes to you,
righteous and victorious,
lowly and riding on a donkey,
on a colt, the foal of a donkey.
Rejoice greatly, Daughter Zion!
Shout, Daughter Jerusalem!
See, your king comes to you,
righteous and victorious,
lowly and riding on a donkey,
on a colt, the foal of a donkey.


Zechariah 12:10
On that day I will set out to destroy all the
nations that attack Jerusalem.
10 “And I will pour out on the house of David
and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of
grace and supplication. They will look on me,
the one they have pierced, and they will
mourn for him as one mourns for an only
child,


But... they see their Messiah was really themselves, like maybe a hundred
million Jews raised from the dead in some vast zombie army.
But the current Jews will see this collective Messiah are the ones they themselves
killed, zombies who didn't amount to much in life 'cos they just rode on donkeys.
It's worth looking into - and I am sure it would sound quite funny.

 

[blü 2]

Now, the New Testament was written solely by Jews. But wot if they were
wrong? Wot if ALL the Redeemer passages in the Old Testament were
about Israel and not the Messiah. Could Israel have been waiting for itself?

Zechariah 9:10

Rejoice greatly, Daughter Zion!
Shout, Daughter Jerusalem!
See, your king comes to you,
righteous and victorious,
lowly and riding on a donkey,
on a colt, the foal of a donkey.
Rejoice greatly, Daughter Zion!
Shout, Daughter Jerusalem!
See, your king comes to you,
righteous and victorious,
lowly and riding on a donkey,
on a colt, the foal of a donkey.


Zechariah 12:10
On that day I will set out to destroy all the
nations that attack Jerusalem.
10 “And I will pour out on the house of David
and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of
grace and supplication. They will look on me,
the one they have pierced, and they will
mourn for him as one mourns for an only
child,


But... they see their Messiah was really themselves, like maybe a hundred
million Jews raised from the dead in some vast zombie army.
But the current Jews will see this collective Messiah are the ones they themselves
killed, zombies who didn't amount to much in life 'cos they just rode on donkeys.
It's worth looking into - and I am sure it would sound quite funny.

Wrong question.

Ask instead, Was Jesus a Jewish messiah?

 

[PruePhillip]

Wrong question.

Ask instead, Was Jesus a Jewish messiah?

Wrong question - ask instead
What IS a Jewish Messiah ?

 

[blü 2]

Wrong question - ask instead
What IS a Jewish Messiah ?

The word, like its translation khristos, means 'anointed' by the Jewish high priesthood, reserved for civil, military and religious leaders (and also found as an honorific for non-Jewish leaders of other countries who have acted benevolently towards Israel).

So you can see where Jesus doesn't fit the ad.

 

[PruePhillip]

Wrong question.

Ask instead, Was Jesus a Jewish messiah?

Yes, Jesus fulfilled two of the three identifiers, and maybe went some way
towards the third one as well.
1 - Jesus is the Redeemer (remember there's two Messiahs, Redeemer and Conqueror)
2 - Prophecy stated the Messiah would be rejected of His own people, and Israel would end with him
3 - Some prophecies speak of the Conqueror Messiah as also being the slain Redeemer.

 

[blü 2]

Yes, Jesus fulfilled two of the three identifiers, and maybe went some way towards the third one as well.

Refresh my memory. Where does it say Jesus was a civil leader of the Jews anointed by the Jewish priesthood?

Or a military leader anointed by the Jewish priesthood?

Or a religious leader anointed by the Jewish priesthood?

 

[PruePhillip]

Refresh my memory. Where does it say Jesus was a civil leader of the Jews anointed by the Jewish priesthood?

Or a military leader anointed by the Jewish priesthood?

Or a religious leader anointed by the Jewish priesthood?

What it does tell you is that the Messiah would be rejected by the Jewish nation.
And in a number of places too. He is the chief corner rejected of the builders.
Despised and rejected, crucified.
"THE Lord said to MY LORD, sit at my right hand till I make your enemies your
footstool." This is TWO ENTITIES - 'The Lord' is God, 'my Lord' is our Messiah. He
would be rejected but it would be some time before he is vindicated. And with His
death would come the destruction of the altar, the temple, Jerusalem and Israel.

 

[blü 2]

What it does tell you is that the Messiah would be rejected by the Jewish nation.

But I don't go for Tarot readings and I don't look up my horoscope and I don't consult psychics. Do you?

And I've never heard of a prophecy so well recorded at the time, so detailed, complex, specific and remote, so well and specifically attested at its actualization, that it got within light years of calling supernatural foreknowledge into the picture as an explanation. Have you?

 

[PruePhillip]

But I don't go for Tarot readings and I don't look up my horoscope and I don't consult psychics. Do you?

And I've never heard of a prophecy so well recorded at the time, so detailed, complex, specific and remote, so well and specifically attested at its actualization, that it got within light years of calling supernatural foreknowledge into the picture as an explanation. Have you?

Yeah sure, plenty of times, In the bible
Not so much in one picture, but over a series of texts over more than
2,000 years. The two Messiahs.
First Messiah is the Redeemer - this becomes more detailed with time.
The second Messiah is the king and He's always the conqueror and
king, without a lot of development of His story.
Jacob said His coming with end Israel. Job said He is alive and would
one day stand on the earth. David said he would suffer terribly and be
rejected even of His own brothers and sisters. Isaiah spoke of His
suffering and resurrection and how generations to come would be
surprised at the disfigured image we would have of Him. Malachi
said an 'Elijah' figure would go before Him, preparing the way (John
the Baptist.) Daniel said He would be 'cut off' by the people who
would destroy the temple and the Jewish nation.
There's tons more, I can't think of many at 11.15 pm.

 

[blü 2]

Yeah sure, plenty of times, In the bible
Not so much in one picture, but over a series of texts over more than
2,000 years. The two Messiahs.
First Messiah is the Redeemer - this becomes more detailed with time.
The second Messiah is the king and He's always the conqueror and
king, without a lot of development of His story.
Jacob said His coming with end Israel. Job said He is alive and would
one day stand on the earth. David said he would suffer terribly and be
rejected even of His own brothers and sisters. Isaiah spoke of His
suffering and resurrection and how generations to come would be
surprised at the disfigured image we would have of Him. Malachi
said an 'Elijah' figure would go before Him, preparing the way (John
the Baptist.) Daniel said He would be 'cut off' by the people who
would destroy the temple and the Jewish nation.
There's tons more, I can't think of many at 11.15 pm.

As the estimable Edward FitzGerald put it ─

The Revelations of Devout and Learn’d
Who rose before us, and as Prophets burn’d,
Are all but Stories, which, awoke from Sleep
They told their comrades, and to Sleep return’d.
​

and that indeed-is the verdict of the evidence and of history. But you live in a free country (I take it) so dream on.