Colt
Well-Known Member
The cultures that developed from Noah's descendants would recall such a spectacular origin.
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What was the forbidden fruit
- Thread starter We Never Know
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Sand Dancer
Currently catless
Nature abhors a vacuum. We like to think we have all of the answers. The story doesn't say specifically.
Sand Dancer
Currently catless
Did they grow apples in the Middle East back then?
Psalm23
Well-Known Member
I don’t know really.
Sand Dancer
Currently catless
I think apples being mentioned is probably a fairly recent version.
....and this is why 'earth wide' there are similar flood stories all about just a few people saved in a flood.
Colt
Well-Known Member
All cultures have flood stories because they have all experienced floods. We still do. But they wouldn't remember Noah's flood because they would have been drowned. Had the other cultures of the world rapidly repopulated from Noah's boat then they would recall the entire story.
Those flood myths of a chosen few escaping in a boat were the basis for the Israelites flood myth. The Israelites appropriated Mesopotamian lore in the construction of the vastly exaggerated story of origins.
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John D. Brey
Well-Known Member
It wouldn't take a rocket scientist to know that the forbidden fruit is semen. And the punishment for Eve's body consuming it is painful childbirth.
Do you know any other fruit on the planet, other than the fruit come, so to say, from the tree in the middle of Adam's garden (body) that causes the one who partakes of it to become pregnant?
The result of eating the forbidden fruit in Genesis is the birth of Cain and the loss of immortality. Evolutionists tell us that the original organisms were all immortal. And when did they lose this immortality? According to science, when the organisms began to experiment with sexual reproduction.
One of the most pervasive metaphors for sex in talmudic literature associates it with food. . . For example, wives in the talmudic texts to be discussed below describe their and their husband's sexual practice as "setting the table" and "turning it over," and the Talmud itself produces a comparison between sexuality and food--- either of which one may "cook" however one pleases, provided only that it is kosher to begin with. . . the force of the metaphor and the implied equation of the woman's body to food cannot be denied. . . The eating metaphor here must be read within the context of the rich field of metaphor in which sex and eating are mutually mapped onto each other in the talmudic culture with eating the quintessential signifier of that which is both pleasurable and necessary for health and well-being. . . Thus the Mishna at Ketubbot 5:9 reads that a wife has the right to eat with her husband every Friday night, and in both Talmuds, this is understood to mean to have sexual intercourse with him.
Rabbi Daniel Boyarin, Carnal Israel, p. 72; 116-117.
Rabbi Daniel Boyarin, Carnal Israel, p. 72; 116-117.
John
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John D. Brey
Well-Known Member
The story is implicitly explicit.
A fellow contributor to the thread ---cOLTER-- implied the story was fabricated for the child-like minds of ancient nomadic simpletons. And yet nothing could be further from the truth since it was written in a manner that can only be read properly by persons dead serious about the topic and the Author.
For instance, the punishment for eating the forbidden fruit is painful childbirth (Gen. 3:16). Furthermore, the tree with the forbidden fruit is called the tree of knowledge דעת. The singular form of the Hebrew word is ידע. Which is crucially important to unearthing the true fruit of the tree of דעת (knowledge) since when a man has sex with his wife in the Tanakh, he's said to gain ידע (knowledge) of her.
When Adam has sex with Eve, the text uses the euphemism that he comes to gain "knowledge" (ידע) of her. He's "eaten" from the bush in the middle of the garden of her body (and vice ---literally---versa).
So you see the text is playing semantic games with the theology of semen. It's not ordained that those who would trifle with sacred things have a spade, hoe, or shovel, sharp enough to dig into the mysteries of their own iniquity. It's those who think they know ידע when they don't who are the true simpletons.
John
Muffled
Jesus in me
I believe you should read post #133 for that.
John D. Brey
Well-Known Member
It's not even called "forbidden" fruit in the bible; although partaking of it is nevertheless forbidden. Ironically, Adam and Eve are told to be "fruitful" and multiply, as though sex is associate with fruit. And as Rabbi Boyarin notes from the Talmud, sex is related to eating, such that eating fruit, and being fruitful, to multiply, multiplies our further knowledge ידע concerning why the first case of fruitfulness leads to Eve giving birth.
John
Good grief just when I think I've heard it all.
Clear: Adam and Eve were already to reproduce according to the Bible at Genesis 1:28.
Adam and Eve were married, husband and wife - Genesis 2:24.
Neither Adam nor Eve were ever offered immortality just everlasting life on Earth 'if' they obeyed God.
If they were immortal, then breaking God's Law of Genesis 2:17 would Not have brought death.
There was No post-mortem penalty, No double jeopardy for either dead Adam nor dead Eve.
They just ' returned ' back to the dust of the ground - Genesis 3:19
John D. Brey
Well-Known Member
. . . Au contraire mon frère. There's so much more than you might even be aware.
The two verses you mention don't appear to be speaking of the same thing since the male and female in Genesis 1:28 are said to be created simultaneously and are given dominion over all the creatures of the earth, while in Genesis 2:24, the female has just been created from the rib of the first human, who (the first human), preexisted her. They weren't created simultaneously, and the second one is treated not as part of the original creation, but as an afterthought, a later addition, for the sake of the first human.
Furthermore, the first human, and the woman created from the rib, are consigned to a "garden," such that they might not even be aware of, or have access to, all the other creatures outside the garden. After the first, or original, sin, they're actually exiled from the garden, and placed amongst all the other creatures on the earth (possibly to include the males and females noted in Genesis 1:26) potentially explaining where Adam and Eve's offspring find mates other than their sisters.
The technical, scientific, meaning of the word "immortal," merely means that the living organism isn't subject to death from its own biology. Something acting on the biology of the organism must cause its death. The original living organisms on planet earth were all immortal. Science says only with the evolution of, get this, sex, did programmed death, death as part of the nature of the biological cell, arise.
Biblically speaking, Adam and Eve were immortal so long as they remained in the garden. It's the expulsion from the garden of immortality that cause them to begin to age, leading to inevitable death.
Again, "immortality" merely means they won't die unless something acting on them from outside their immortal bodies causes their death. Breaking God's law, i.e., eating from the tree, that is, having sex, led to death becoming a natural part of their biology and the biology of the offspring of their unlawful mixing.
Their formerly immortal bodies senescenced and died. But the soul can't die. It's just that without a body it's in a real pickle.
John
. . . ......Again, "immortality" merely means they won't die unless something acting on them from outside their immortal bodies causes their death. Breaking God's law, i.e., eating from the tree, that is, having sex, led to death becoming a natural part of their biology and the biology of the offspring of their unlawful mixing.
Their formerly immortal bodies senscenced and died. But the soul can't die. It's just that without a body it's in a real pickle.
I find being immortal means being: death proof.
Adam and Eve were Not offered immortality but offered 'everlasting life' on Earth as long as they did Not disobey God.
So, there is a BIG difference between being immortal (death proof) and offered everlasting life if obedient.
Sinner Satan is Not immortal and he will be destroyed by Jesus as per Hebrews 2:14 B.
In Scripture ->the soul dies - Please see Acts of the Apostles 3:23; Ezekiel 18:4,20
Adam and Eve were husband and wife - Genesis 2:24 - and were to reproduce.
Eating from God's forbidden tree was stealing from God's fruit tree, not a sexual act.
John D. Brey
Well-Known Member
Ok. I don't have a problem interpreting "immortal" that way. And interpreting it that way lends itself to what you say about Adam and Eve having life so long as they're obedient, but losing that life if they're not.
So we're now on the same sheet of music semantically.
Once again, I don't have a problem with the literal statement you make above. My question concerns whether the fruit that led to death was literal or allegorical? If it's literal, then the thing that caused the death appears to be merely the act of disobedience itself (such that the fruit is somewhat irrelevant).
But if we're allowed to dig deeper into the original text, we see that in the Hebrew, the text claims that "dying you shall die" מות תמות. This seems to say that dying spiritually, because of your disobedience, will lead to your body gradually senescencing (ageing) resulting in death.
Which, if a person is willing to follow the logic above, is kind of like taking the red pill rather than the blue. It leads into a whole other way of understanding matrix of the text.
Since experience suggests that many if not most people are addicted to the blue pill, no further exegesis is needed.
John
To me being addicted to the blue pill does Not necessarily mean there is No red pill, etc.
Adam simply went from non-life, to life, and returned back to non-life - Genesis 3:19
a person can't 'return' to a place he never was before.
At death all of Adam simply no longer existed.
Adam simply went from non-life, to life, and returned back to non-life - Genesis 3:19
a person can't 'return' to a place he never was before.
At death all of Adam simply no longer existed.
Triumph
FREEDOM OF SPEECH
The forbidden by God fruit is believing a lie is the truth. All people that believe a serpent talked with a woman, eat that fruit. The Adam and Eve story is a fable devised by Abraham to create a new religion to exalt himself so he could be both the Lord over his people that believed him and their God as the voice of his imaginary Lord God Abraham invented to exalt himself..
God is not Lord God. God is the Father of Jesus. Lord God is Abraham and his sons Abraham handed his crown to so they continued in the Lord God narratives to keep themselves on a bloodline throne established by Abrahams lies. Jesus hears the voice of God, this Abraham did not do. Abraham never heard God speak to him because God never did. Abraham is the father of the lie he has a covenant because in reality. none exists.
rational experiences
Veteran Member
Science said man of science already ate broke consumed the apple shaped earth sine model the poles or the two pillars....so now earth owns a man type angel cover as earths mantle cloak of many colours life's sacrificed father description.
What man of science caused to human life by not heeding father's human warnings that he identified in theism first.
As I want superseded what I needed and I was not first in want of anything advice.
Of a man adults science confession.
As a baby he said he was innocent of knowing science and it was his adult man's fault.
Yet babies since have been life sacrificed born punished as he sacrificed life's origin DNA the confession.
Still is causing health removal as he does not care. Civilisation first gave him rich man control. Rich man paid scientist for new trade invention.
Rich men are liars. Pretty basic human warning.
What man of science caused to human life by not heeding father's human warnings that he identified in theism first.
As I want superseded what I needed and I was not first in want of anything advice.
Of a man adults science confession.
As a baby he said he was innocent of knowing science and it was his adult man's fault.
Yet babies since have been life sacrificed born punished as he sacrificed life's origin DNA the confession.
Still is causing health removal as he does not care. Civilisation first gave him rich man control. Rich man paid scientist for new trade invention.
Rich men are liars. Pretty basic human warning.
Sedim Haba
Outa here... bye-bye!
One Jewish understanding is it was a grape.
rational experiences
Veteran Member
Grapes produce wine by men forcing the natural grape to change.
The grape is gods first. Natural form.
Wine. Man's idea a medicine or chemical changes to biology. As the product.
Two thought idea.
Vinegar a medical grape product can also be used in batteries so it produces a secondary reason.
Hence if you claim you use products for human healing it's known first.
Then in secondary occult science you used it for energy storage as it was compatible.
Which isn't in nature or with nature with God first.
As what you did in fact own was battery clay pot storage. Inventive science of men is inventive science of men.
God owned the presence the grape. Which is itself very healthy. You changed it for science.
It's man of science manipulating produce.
The grape is gods first. Natural form.
Wine. Man's idea a medicine or chemical changes to biology. As the product.
Two thought idea.
Vinegar a medical grape product can also be used in batteries so it produces a secondary reason.
Hence if you claim you use products for human healing it's known first.
Then in secondary occult science you used it for energy storage as it was compatible.
Which isn't in nature or with nature with God first.
As what you did in fact own was battery clay pot storage. Inventive science of men is inventive science of men.
God owned the presence the grape. Which is itself very healthy. You changed it for science.
It's man of science manipulating produce.