What was the Leviathan?

[The Fog Horn]

The Leviathan was an anthropomorphised underwater volcanic eruption.

If you disgree, please state exactly why and I will handle your objections.

 

[1137]

Who knows. Maybe it was just a big sea creature that they blew out of proportion, hell maybe it wasn't even that big. The cool thing about Leviathan is it is a sea monster, it could live in the places we haven't uncovered. Other "mythological" sea monsters were discovered to exist in history like the giant squid. Not only that, things like "The Bloop" exist, sounds heard underwater by unknown natural animals that would have to be bigger than a blue whale. I wouldn't be too surprised if a Leviathan exists, although it's doubful that it's what the bible describes. Why do you think it was a volcanoc eruption?

 

[Sir Doom]

Kinda like this?

[youtube]33n-IS8a1S4[/youtube]
Spaceballs - PIZZA THE HUT! - YouTube

 

[outhouse]

The Leviathan was an anthropomorphised underwater volcanic eruption.

If you disgree, please state exactly why and I will handle your objections.

it was mythology and no way can be interpreted as your false assumptions as a underwater volcano

 

[The Fog Horn]

I wish someone could disable Outhouse's ability to smack his head because variety is the spice of life and he's getting rather bland.

The Doors.....

Job 41

19 Out of his mouth go burning lamps, and sparks of fire leap out.
20 Out of his nostrils goeth smoke, as out of a seething pot or caldron.
21 His breath kindleth coals, and a flame goeth out of his mouth.
24 His heart is as firm as a stone; yea, as hard as a piece of the nether millstone.
28 The arrow cannot make him flee: slingstones are turned with him into stubble.
30 Sharp stones are under him: he spreadeth sharp pointed things upon the mire.
31 He maketh the deep to boil like a pot: he maketh the sea like a pot of ointment.
32 He maketh a path to shine after him; one would think the deep to be hoary (white haired....same way Yahweh is described)

Nothing in that contradicts the theory.

The ancient Hebrews were surrounded by volcano filled waters....the Suez Canal, the Gulf of Aqaba, the Dead Sea, the Red Sea, the Jordan River, the Med....etc. The Holy Land is holy because it's highly volcanic, due to being a rift zone, but the Holy Land's waterways are where most of the volcanic activity occurs. As the ancient Hebrews did not have a clue what underwater volcanoes were (nor land ones either), they will have antrhopomorphised them. They will not have stood back and admired them in awe and wonder and spoke about the amazing natural sights and sounds of the day. They will have peed their pants over the smoke and fire breathing sea monster and will have forged stories that they firmly believed in to be passed down through the generations.

Myth? Yes.....based on absolute belief in the underwater volcanoes being monsters.

 

[fallingblood]

The Leviathan was an anthropomorphised underwater volcanic eruption.

If you disgree, please state exactly why and I will handle your objections.

Many scholars believe that Leviathan was based off of the Egytpian crocodile (or the crocodile of the Nile river). That is as described in the Book of Job. Now, according to this particular stance, there is obviously some exaggeration to the size and such. There is a mythological aspect here.

So basically we have a crocodile that underwent a mythological change. I don't think the origins of the being really is the important aspect though. There is a mythological aspect, and that should lead us to the idea that the Leviathan represented something more.

I think regardless of what the origins of the beast are (I personally am convinced with the crocodile explanation. Another explanation, such as yours, is possible though), the importance of Leviathan is that it symbolized chaos. A controlled chaos for he most part, but still chaos. And this is somewhat of a standard explanation of sea serpents in Ancient Near Eastern cultures.

 

[outhouse]

and it says in job this as well

39:9 Will the unicorn be willing to serve thee, or abide by thy crib?

 

[1137]

The Doors.....

Job 41

19 Out of his mouth go burning lamps, and sparks of fire leap out.
20 Out of his nostrils goeth smoke, as out of a seething pot or caldron.
21 His breath kindleth coals, and a flame goeth out of his mouth.
24 His heart is as firm as a stone; yea, as hard as a piece of the nether millstone.
28 The arrow cannot make him flee: slingstones are turned with him into stubble.
30 Sharp stones are under him: he spreadeth sharp pointed things upon the mire.
31 He maketh the deep to boil like a pot: he maketh the sea like a pot of ointment.
32 He maketh a path to shine after him; one would think the deep to be hoary (white haired....same way Yahweh is described)

Nothing in that contradicts the theory.

The ancient Hebrews were surrounded by volcano filled waters....the Suez Canal, the Gulf of Aqaba, the Dead Sea, the Red Sea, the Jordan River, the Med....etc. The Holy Land is holy because it's highly volcanic, due to being a rift zone, but the Holy Land's waterways are where most of the volcanic activity occurs. As the ancient Hebrews did not have a clue what underwater volcanoes were (nor land ones either), they will have antrhopomorphised them. They will not have stood back and admired them in awe and wonder and spoke about the amazing natural sights and sounds of the day. They will have peed their pants over the smoke and fire breathing sea monster and will have forged stories that they firmly believed in to be passed down through the generations.

Myth? Yes.....based on absolute belief in the underwater volcanoes being monsters.

That's a very good theory that I never thought of. A couple things though; first can you provide a source as that shows all this volcanic activity in the area? I don't think you are lying or anything, but I can't just take your word haha. Second, how would the Hebrews have seen underwater volcanic explosions actually happen? Last, the preceding verses in Job make it out to be an actual animal, although that could be just the anthropomorphism. However, your theory does not explain that it is described as having a mouth with teeth, that Leviathan has scales on it's body, things like that. It's more likely that Leviathan was a Nile Crocodile.

 

[The Fog Horn]

Many scholars believe that Leviathan was based off of the Egytpian crocodile (or the crocodile of the Nile river). That is as described in the Book of Job. Now, according to this particular stance, there is obviously some exaggeration to the size and such. There is a mythological aspect here.

So basically we have a crocodile that underwent a mythological change. I don't think the origins of the being really is the important aspect though. There is a mythological aspect, and that should lead us to the idea that the Leviathan represented something more.

I think regardless of what the origins of the beast are (I personally am convinced with the crocodile explanation. Another explanation, such as yours, is possible though), the importance of Leviathan is that it symbolized chaos. A controlled chaos for he most part, but still chaos. And this is somewhat of a standard explanation of sea serpents in Ancient Near Eastern cultures.

If you are convinced the Leviathan was a crocodile, please state the verses that back up your belief. If you are convinced the Leviathan was a crocodile, you cannot also be convinced the Leviathan is mythological. If you believe the Leviathan was originally mythological (and not a crocodile), are you saying the Bible makes things up for the hell of it? Please state which verses do not fit with the antrhopomorphised underwater volcano theory....the number surely being far greater than the number against your croc theory.

 

[1137]

If you are convinced the Leviathan was a crocodile, please state the verses that back up your belief. If you are convinced the Leviathan was a crocodile, you cannot also be convinced the Leviathan is mythological. If you believe the Leviathan was originally mythological (and not a crocodile), are you saying the Bible makes things up for the hell of it? Please state which verses do not fit with the antrhopomorphised underwater volcano theory....the number surely being far greater than the number against your croc theory.

Mythology makes things out to be what they are not. Much like calling a volcano a sea monster. Imagine being very unreasonable and uneducated man, and your friend is slaughtered by a croc. That will spark horror stories.

Job:
1 Can you pull in the leviathan with a fishhook or tie down his tongue with a rope?
2 Can you put a cord through his nose or pierce his jaw with a hook?
7 Can you fill his hide with harpoons or his head with fishing spears?
12 I will not fail to speak of his limbs, his strength and his graceful form.
14 Who dares open the doors of his mouth, ringed about with his fearsome teeth?
15 His back has rows of shields tightly sealed together;
16 each is so close to the next that no air can pass between.

These are some example of what could be a crocodile being blown out of proportion. The flames and smoke and such is just further mythology added to a terrifying monster.

 

[The Fog Horn]

That's a very good theory that I never thought of. A couple things though; first can you provide a source as that shows all this volcanic activity in the area? I don't think you are lying or anything, but I can't just take your word haha. Second, how would the Hebrews have seen underwater volcanic explosions actually happen? Last, the preceding verses in Job make it out to be an actual animal, although that could be just the anthropomorphism. However, your theory does not explain that it is described as having a mouth with teeth, that Leviathan has scales on it's body, things like that. It's more likely that Leviathan was a Nile Crocodile.

Google 'Oh My Volcano' and spend a few days going through that. There are many posts regarding volcanic activity throughout the 'Holy' Land. Teeth? Scales? Surely a sea monster would have teeth and scales. Don't all monsters have these things? The Leviathan also had nostrils and smoke came out of those. How many animals have smoke coming out of their nostrils.....or should I say, 'nostrils'? Funnily enough, Yahweh was also said to have smoke coming out of his nostrils and to have white hair.....and the Leviathan also makes the sea look like it's filled with white hair (hoary).....billowing ash clouds. As you are still convinced the Leviathan was a crocodile, can you please post which verses fit your theory and also post which verses contradict mine?

 

[1137]

I still don't rule out an actual Leviathan existing. We have not seen the whole ocean, we have sounds possibly caused by unknown sea creatures larger than blue whales, the probability of there being things in the ocean we have not discovered seems very high. There is no way we can say it is unlikely that some actual Leviathan is out there, although there is little chance it is what the writers of Job saw. Much weirder things have happen and the truth is we just don't know what is out there. In the meantime, for fun, check these out:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i6DK-AYgKI8

List of unexplained sounds - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[outhouse]

. If you are convinced the Leviathan was a crocodile, you cannot also be convinced the Leviathan is mythological.

false

this shows your ignorance in the biblical application of mythology

 

[outhouse]

How many animals have smoke coming out of their nostrils.....or should I say, 'nostrils'?

dragon mythology

 

[confused453]

Creatures from the Purgatory who Castiel tried to absorb unsuccessfully, and who also gave us another season of Supernatural

 

[The Fog Horn]

Job:
1 Can you pull in the leviathan with a fishhook or tie down his tongue with a rope?
2 Can you put a cord through his nose or pierce his jaw with a hook?
7 Can you fill his hide with harpoons or his head with fishing spears?

The point of the above three verses is that NO...you cannot do these things to the Leviathan. You could, however, do it to a crocodile.

12 I will not fail to speak of his limbs, his strength and his graceful form.
14 Who dares open the doors of his mouth, ringed about with his fearsome teeth?
15 His back has rows of shields tightly sealed together;
16 each is so close to the next that no air can pass between.

Anthropomorphism. Unknown natural events were anthropomorphised then. Everything they did not understand was worshipped or feared and given animal, human or divine (or all) characteristics.

19 Out of his mouth go burning lamps, and sparks of fire leap out.
20 Out of his nostrils goeth smoke, as out of a seething pot or caldron.
21 His breath kindleth coals, and a flame goeth out of his mouth.

23 The flakes of his flesh are joined together: they are firm in themselves; they cannot be moved.

The scales/flakes of his flesh....the dark rough surface of the underwater volcano, which may at times have risen above the surface (creation of land). They thought it was a monster. They thought the dark rough stuff they saw was the monster's scaly skin. They noted that it didn't move and decided that must have been because the scales were so tightly compacted. It never entered their heads that it didn't move because it was a volcano. They didn't know about land volcanoes let alone submarine ones.

25 When he raiseth up himself, the mighty are afraid: by reason of breakings they purify themselves.

Crodiles do not raise themselves up but crawl along. Underwater volcanoes raise themselves up as they erupt and create plumes of water and ash, and create new land.

26 The sword of him that layeth at him cannot hold: the spear, the dart, nor the habergeon.

Crocodiles are not impervious to spears. Volcanic rock is.

27 He esteemeth iron as straw, and brass as rotten wood.

This Leviathan can destroy anything. Have you ever known a crocodile to chew up an iron bar as though it was straw?

28 The arrow cannot make him flee: slingstones are turned with him into stubble.

This Leviathan cannot be moved by hook or by crook.

30 Sharp stones are under him: he spreadeth sharp pointed things upon the mire.

How many crocodiles spew out 'sharp pointed things'...or brimstone?

31 He maketh the deep to boil like a pot: he maketh the sea like a pot of ointment.

The crocodiles were so hot they could brew up a tea? They relieved themselves in the water so it became murky?

32 He maketh a path to shine after him; one would think the deep to be hoary.

A path to shine after him? The crocs laid a flourescent path after they crawled along or an underwater volcano produced rivers of glowing lava and plumes of ash clouds? Hoary means 'white hair'. Yahweh was also described as white haired and also had smoke coming out of his nostrils. His glory was pretty intense too and it made Moses' face shine.

 

[1137]

You have some very good points. I may be inclined to agree with you, it kind of seems more likely to be an underwater volcano than a crocodile. As for sea monsters in general, that is a different story that will only be concluded in time.

 

[The Fog Horn]

You have some very good points. I may be inclined to agree with you, it kind of seems more likely to be an underwater volcano than a crocodile. As for sea monsters in general, that is a different story that will only be concluded in time.

A changed mind....what a refreshing change

I am breaking new ground with this. No-one else on the net is discussing this theory. It is, however, 'toyed' with by computer game designers. Or is it us who the designers are toying with? I am finding that many new ideas are included in computer games and film scripts. Do the producers know something we don't? Of course they do. We know nothing. We are in the Matrix.

 

[Riverwolf]

are you saying the Bible makes things up for the hell of it?

How can a book that's not alive make anything up?

Kidding aside, why can't the book of Job be a work of fiction, describing things from the author's own imagination?

Or perhaps there were tales of monsters in that area. I'm sure you've heard of the telephone game.

A whale spout from a distance might appear to be smoke. That's all the first person would need to see: smoke. Then someone would say that there must have been fire, as well, since smoke typically doesn't occur without fire. From then on, other aspects are applied to the creature, such as ferocity. Suppose the whale in question was peaceful, but other sailors encountered more aggressive animals, and mistook them for the same animal?

I'm not saying these people were stupid, not at all. Our brains are still as capable of making these mistakes, especially when excited by fear, as they were long ago.

 

[The Fog Horn]

How can a book that's not alive make anything up?

Kidding aside, why can't the book of Job be a work of fiction, describing things from the author's own imagination?

Or perhaps there were tales of monsters in that area. I'm sure you've heard of the telephone game.

A whale spout from a distance might appear to be smoke. That's all the first person would need to see: smoke. Then someone would say that there must have been fire, as well, since smoke typically doesn't occur without fire. From then on, other aspects are applied to the creature, such as ferocity. Suppose the whale in question was peaceful, but other sailors encountered more aggressive animals, and mistook them for the same animal?

I'm not saying these people were stupid, not at all. Our brains are still as capable of making these mistakes, especially when excited by fear, as they were long ago.

Illogical reasoning given the weighting towards my theory. Go through the entire thread (I suspect you have yet to do that) and decide what is the most likely scenario. Break it down to the bare bones of reality. Imagine the ancient Hebrews living in the volcanic holy land where most eruptions occured underwater. Would they have a name and animal characteristics for an underwater volcanic eruption or not? Would stories of such things have been passed down through the generations of the Hebrews and other holy land civilisations about underwater volcanoes or not? Of course they would have had a name for them! Leviathans! It's bloody obvious man. Don't make it any more complicated than it needs to be. The saying, 'keep it simple stupid' works really well when debunking the Bible. Think like a child and you will get it.