What would Christians say if Jesus doesn't come on the clouds, but will be born again as a human?

[Excalibur]

Mark 13:26 - At that time people will see the Son of Man coming in clouds with great power and glory.

Mark 14:62 - "I am," said Jesus. "And you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven."

Revelation 1:7 - "Look, he is coming with the clouds," and "every eye will see him, even those who pierced him"; and all peoples on earth "will mourn because of him." So shall it be! Amen.
_________________________________________________________________________________________________

Do you agree that "Jesus coming on the clouds" is not the be taken as LITERAL, but this is just a METAPHOR to describe the Second Coming of Christ, which will be a GLORIOUS event witnessed by the entire world?

Therefore, if this is a figure of speech we can only assume that Jesus will be born again in the same manner that he was born a human in the 1st century AD.

Assuming this is correct, do you agree that Jesus being born again as a human would serve to FALSIFY Hebrews 9:27, which means that reincarnation is TRUE, and traditional Christian rejection of reincarnation must be FALSE?

So do you agree that Jesus will be born again as a human because "Jesus coming on the clouds" is nothing but a METAPHOR to describe the GLORY of the Second Coming of Christ?

So do you agree that if Jesus would be born again as a human it means that reincarnation must be TRUE, and rejection of reincarnation in Hebrews 9:27 is thereby FALSE?

Do you agree that Christ will be born again as a human in the same manner that he was born in Bethlehem in the 1st century AD?

Do you agree that Hebrews 9:27 is FALSE?

 

[Brickjectivity]

Do you agree that you should feed the hungry, educate and help house the homeless? As long as that isn't metaphorical you are probably doing ok.

Most Christians will not entertain the idea. In modern times many people view the Bible as a unit. That means that all of the meanings of the various passages are only understood by a sort of puzzling by fitting all the various passages and eliminating possible meanings, sort of like its a giant multi-dimensional crossword puzzle. Almost certainly you are going to encounter opposition to proposing this idea.

I think in the Liberal Christianity section there would be room for that as an interpretation of this kind though not as an absolute. If you are saying that you have the only way of interpreting the second coming then you are probably all by yourself.

 

[Excalibur]

Most Christians will not entertain the idea. In modern times many people view the Bible as a unit. That means that all of the meanings of the various passages are only understood by a sort of puzzling by fitting all the various passages and eliminating possible meanings, sort of like its a giant multi-dimensional crossword puzzle. Almost certainly you are going to encounter opposition to proposing this idea.

I think in the Liberal Christianity section there would be room for that as an interpretation of this kind though not as an absolute. If you are saying that you have the only way of interpreting the second coming then you are probably all by yourself.

But let's supposing that Jesus doesn't come on the clouds (literally), but will be born again as a human:-

1. What would happen if it could be established that Jesus has been reborn as a human?
2. What would happen if it could be established that the Returned Christ's ethnic identity is not Jewish?

Taken together, 1 & 2 would tell us that even the most ardent opponents of reincarnation would be compelled to change their viewpoint in the face of such overwhelming evidence?

For how could one deny that the earth is spherical in the face of such overwhelming evidence?

 

[Brickjectivity]

But let's supposing that Jesus doesn't come on the clouds (literally), but will be born again as a human:-

1. What would happen if it could be established that Jesus has been reborn as a human?
2. What would happen if it could be established that the Returned Christ's ethnic identity is not Jewish?

Taken together, 1 & 2 would tell us that even the most ardent opponents of reincarnation would be compelled to change their viewpoint in the face of such overwhelming evidence?

For how could one deny that the earth is spherical in the face of such overwhelming evidence?

Let me think...

If Jesus were reborn as a human being there would be problems. First all of, the Christians would almost certainly kill him. Our theology is difficult already, so a second birth would really complicate things. I myself would have a few pointed questions. The Jews would geek out. The Buddhists would ignore him, unless they thought he was Buddha in which case they would kill him. The Muslims would insist he had not been reborn but had come down from heaven to do Muslim stuff. The Advaita Hindus and the Vedanta Hindus would all go nuts arguing about him and would probably define a new kind of logic and new branches of mathematics. Then of course all the rock stars and movie stars would want to weigh in. The wiccans would edit their wiccipedia articles. The atheists would athe constantly. Also, he would have a lot of work to do.

 

[Excalibur]

Let me think...

If Jesus were reborn as a human being there would be problems. First all of, the Christians would almost certainly kill him. Our theology is difficult already, so a second birth would really complicate things. I myself would have a few pointed questions. The Jews would geek out. The Buddhists would ignore him, unless they thought he was Buddha in which case they would kill him. The Muslims would insist he had not been reborn but had come down from heaven to do Muslim stuff. The Advaita Hindus and the Vedanta Hindus would all go nuts arguing about him and would probably define a new kind of logic and new branches of mathematics. Then of course all the rock stars and movie stars would want to weigh in. The wiccans would edit their wiccipedia articles. The atheists would athe constantly. Also, he would have a lot of work to do.

But why would Christians want to kill him?

 

[Brickjectivity]

But why would Christians want to kill him?

For messing up our theology. He's not allowed to do that.

 

[Excalibur]

For messing up our theology. He's not allowed to do that.

Do I take that as a cue that this subject is not to be mentioned at all?

 

[Excalibur]

For messing up our theology. He's not allowed to do that.

But let me rephrase that question:- Do you think we should expect the Return of Christ to happen in the lifetime of this present generation?

 

[Brickjectivity]

But let me rephrase that question:- Do you think we should expect the Return of Christ to happen in the lifetime of this present generation?

This is something people disagree about quite a lot. There are several ways people envision it, and some think that he already came and returned to heaven. You see there are numerous interpretations of what his return will be like, and on top of it some people think its a secret. No one has ever suggested to me anything about reincarnation. Most non-traditional ideas about Jesus return have to do with the Olivet prophecy and the book Revelation (usually in reverse order with opinions on Revelation dictating opinions about the Olivet prophecy). Protestants would say it was forgotten and then rediscovered in the Bible by protestants. If you recall, wars were fought between the Christian governments in an attempt to bring unity to Christendom, and those wars failed (not surprisingly). Most prophecy indicates Jesus will not return to a divided church, but let us presume this is the work of Jesus, since it has happened to his church. Now let us impose that this was a fulfillment of prophecy, the Olivet prophecy, and let us suppose that the Olivet prophecy is commentary upon Zechariah 14:4. Its a ridiculous contortion, but if it be so then each half of Christianity is of necessity one half of a spiritualized Mt. of Olives, with Jesus feet upon each half. I think that would be ridiculous, and so no way is Jesus returning any time soon. A divided Christendom defies any possibility of return.

Do I take that as a cue that this subject is not to be mentioned at all?

No, I don't silence people.

 

[Kolibri]

When Jesus is "coming in the clouds", it will be invisible to the naked eye. Why do we know this?

"After [Jesus] said these things, while they were looking on, he was lifted up and a cloud caught him up from their sight. And as they were gazing into the sky while he was on his way, suddenly two men in white garments stood besides them and said: 'Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking into the sky? This Jesus who was taken up from you into the sky will come in the same manner as you have seen him going into the sky.'"
- Acts 1:9-11

Since he was leaving invisible to the naked eye, he will return invisible to the naked eye. But just as the evidence of wind gives us mental clarity that there is wind, every eye will be know that Jesus has arrived to render judgement by the physical evidence that Jehovah's Day for judgement has arrived.

 

[wizanda]

Both happen, he comes as a thief before...With warnings of be careful that the son of man comes, at a time you don't expect.

There is then the final judgement, where all of reality is rebuilt, and at that point you shall see him with the hosts of heaven.

A divided Christendom defies any possibility of return.

That was the whole point in his coming, to bring a sword of division.

Do you agree that Hebrews is FALSE?

Agree Hebrews is false, plus can show many other bits....So Christians would want to kill him for trying to correct their religion.

 

[Brickjectivity]

Wizanda -- 'Mr. 0neness', he was into dividing light from darkness, but he was into bringing all sheep together into his one fold. There's every indication that his return would depend upon a unified Christianity.

Suppose, however, that he is into division and likes division. There are still many theological problems with him returning in incarnations. Its incompatible with almost all the stories, so basically you'd be talking about a new prophet such as Bahai Ulah.

 

[wizanda]

he was into dividing light from darkness, but he was into bringing all sheep together into his one fold.

The word 'But' contradicts what you just stated... So you're basically saying Yeshua wants 'all' scum bags, and not that he was separating the wheat from the chaff.

Suppose, however, that he is into division and likes division.

It doesn't say Yeshua likes division; merely that he came to cause it... Revelations blatantly shows us the church is divided, and within that, some are chosen, some are removed.

There's every indication that his return would depend upon a unified Christianity.

Please show me where that idea comes from?
As my own understanding is everything gets much worse before it, and then the return is prophesied.

 

[Excalibur]

The word 'But' contradicts what you just stated... So you're basically saying Yeshua wants 'all' scum bags, and not that he was separating the wheat from the chaff.

It doesn't say Yeshua likes division; merely that he came to cause it... Revelations blatantly shows us the church is divided, and within that, some are chosen, some are removed.

Please show me where that idea comes from?
As my own understanding is everything gets much worse before it, and then the return is prophesied.

So do you think the Return of Christ will happen during the lifetime of this generation?

 

[wizanda]

So do you think the Return of Christ will happen during the lifetime of this generation?

Already is happening.

 

[Excalibur]

Already is happening.

THANK YOU.

 

[Brickjectivity]

The word 'But' contradicts what you just stated... So you're basically saying Yeshua wants 'all' scum bags, and not that he was separating the wheat from the chaff.

Maybe you are saying that. I said nothing about scumbags or about Yeshua or about wheat etc. Besides, even when you bring his wheat and chaff story in the entire point is that the two cannot be separated by us but only by the angels at the very end, therefore our divisions are not righteous but earthly, unspiritual, based on false accusations.

It doesn't say Yeshua likes division; merely that he came to cause it... Revelations blatantly shows us the church is divided, and within that, some are chosen, some are removed.

I'm commenting on how you have taken his comment. You quoted simply that he came to cause division, and I'm pointing out that you have done this without any clarification. He said lots of things to his disciples that at first didn't make sense, things they had to think about. John provides that Jesus wants to divide light from darkness, so there you go. Now are the divisions in the Churches clear divisions between light and dark? Hell no. They're foggy and murky divisions at best. The best approach here is to remember his prayer that all of his disciples would be one just as he and his heavenly father are one, which is John 17. It feels ironic that you would tell me that Jesus is about dividing people from people. Absolutely anyone can accomplish division. It takes almost zero effort, not the efforts of a savior. It practically happens all by itself.

As for Revelations its the most abused book ever. I'd sooner take no opinion than the opinion of someone who claims it endorses or accepts the divisions that exist today within Christianity.

Please show me where that idea comes from?
As my own understanding is everything gets much worse before it, and then the return is prophesied.

Some of this may sound new, but it isn't. There is a challenge to explain it not because information about it is rare but because it is not preached today by the money making churches by which I mean that plethora of churches which have a paid ministry. They thrive on dividing people and harvesting fear, turning it into isolation and enslaving people with it. Division is a money making venture, and to most people we are fools if we don't pursue it. Politicians do, managers do, and just about all methods of human resourcing and personnel thrive on it. The ability to make small objections into concerns and then into fears and angry confrontations is the real power in politics, and those who are good at it thrive. Its no different in churches, because there are both people and politics in churches.

The gospel begins (paraphrasing) with the gospel of peace, announced in Matthew by angels to poor shepherds. "Glory to God in the Highest and on Earth: Peace and Goodwill towards men." This is the beginning of the gospel of peace which was to go out to every tribe of Jews, and it did go out according to the gospel authors. Today people say it was preached throughout the Earth, but in fact the commission was to all tribes and was from Jews to Jews. Whether it specified all thing things in church traditions such as trinity etc. is not really my cup of tea to discuss. I just don't care about that (anymore, not that I haven't studied it). Another main premise of the gospel is the prayer that Jesus teaches his disciples to pray, which is "Our Father in Heaven....let your kingdom come, your will be done on Earth just as it is in Heaven..." which is equal to the prayer of John 17 in which Jesus prays that his disciples will all be one. The two prayers are both for the same goal. In addition to the gospels the references to Jesus return by the Pauline author(s) and the author of Hebrews suggest that Jesus must remain in heaven until all of his enemies are destroyed including all kinds of sins, diseases and even death itself. Within this framework is a call to patience and endurance by all the saints, not to judge, not to offend or to be easily offended. These are just a small sampling of the many, many importations by Jesus not to be judgmental against others, to be meek, to help those who are weak, to leave the larger group to find the loner. It is the opposite, by the way, of what paid ministries do. They exclude the loner to take care of the mob. They fear interference by those on the outside and worry about infections. They worry, for example, that JW's or Mormons will infect their congregations or that atheists will infect their congregations. They treat everyone as a leper who isn't eating out of their own belly buttons. Thus they not only don't preach the gospel but appear to have never heard it for themselves. If they were to do as Jesus instructed they'd be out of a job, so they don't.

Peace on Earth and goodwill towards all men (which includes women though the language of the day just said 'men'.)

 

[ronandcarol]

What would Christians say if Jesus doesn't come on the clouds, but will be born again as a human? A Christian would say it is a false prophet! If you are a Christian you would believe what the Bible says will happen and you would wait for the glorious return of Jesus on the clouds accompanied by 1,000's of Angels.

ronandcarol

 

[whirlingmerc]

I believe Jesus will return literally for one thing the New Testament describes it that way, for another, Jesus rose never to die again, so also says the New Testament

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Mark 13:26 - At that time people will see the Son of Man coming in clouds with great power and glory.
Mark 14:62 - "I am," said Jesus. "And you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven."
Revelation 1:7 - "Look, he is coming with the clouds," and "every eye will see him, even those who pierced him"; and all peoples on earth "will mourn because of him." So shall it be! Amen.
_________________________________________________________________________________________________
Do you agree that "Jesus coming on the clouds" is not the be taken as LITERAL, but this is just a METAPHOR to describe the Second Coming of Christ, which will be a GLORIOUS event witnessed by the entire world?
Therefore, if this is a figure of speech we can only assume that Jesus will be born again in the same manner that he was born a human in the 1st century AD.
Assuming this is correct, do you agree that Jesus being born again as a human would serve to FALSIFY Hebrews 9:27, which means that reincarnation is TRUE, and traditional Christian rejection of reincarnation must be FALSE?
So do you agree that Jesus will be born again as a human because "Jesus coming on the clouds" is nothing but a METAPHOR to describe the GLORY of the Second Coming of Christ?
So do you agree that if Jesus would be born again as a human it means that reincarnation must be TRUE, and rejection of reincarnation in Hebrews 9:27 is thereby FALSE?
Do you agree that Christ will be born again as a human in the same manner that he was born in Bethlehem in the 1st century AD?
Do you agree that Hebrews 9:27 is FALSE?

First of all, we can see ( perceive ) with the ' mind's eye ' in understanding.
Flesh ( physical ) does Not inherit the kingdom - 1 Corinthians 15:50
Remember: John 14:19 because Jesus said the world would behold him No more.
Jesus disappeared in the clouds - Acts of the Apostles 1:9
So, coming in the clouds indicates he is invisible to the naked eye, but humankind will know by the activities taking place - Isaiah 11:3-4; Jeremiah 25:31-33; Revelation 19:14-16