What would convince you of God's existence?

[WanderingSoul]

please let me illustrate more:

1. using five senses to believe in something:

that something you have experienced by one of your senses is something that you have experienced it (itself), and it's traces(signs).

since science has been developed , five senses has extended through microscope, telescope, sound amplifiers,....etc

so any thing tangible you can experiense it by your five senses is not a controversial, even a donkey stops when it sees a hole while it is walking.

I clipped # 1 because your post was a lot to digest in one sitting.

Okay, let's get a little more specific. You say anything "tangible you can experience" is not controversial.

First, I would disagree in the practical sense that, controversy arises all the time over tangible experiences. In a court of law, both sides may argue over a claim of hearing a gunshot in the night, as one example. The experiencer may be quite certain in their belief, until the defense produces a child that confesses to blowing a firecracker.

In regard to God, how does the person know that they are tangibly experiencing God, and not mental illness or a demon entity playing a trick?

 

[WanderingSoul]

please let me illustrate more:

2. using reasoning :

reasoning is used by the intellectual mankind only, you can see the organiser from the organisation by your intellect,you can see the impeller from the impelling by your intellect, you can see the wise from the wisdom by your intellect, you can see the creator from the creation by your intellect.

here we are talking about something that you can experience it's trace and sign but you can't experince it by you five senses.

this universe is a sign that indicate that there is a creator, though we can't see God.

Okay, this is your #2 here. You say that with our reasoning we can see the creator from the creation with our intellect. You say, because we know the impeller impels, the wise produce wisdom, and that organizers organize, that I should infer a universal being of wisdom, organization, who impelled the universe into existence. That's basically your argument.

First, I'll point out that your first line is, "reasoning is used by the intellectual mankind only," which pretty much destroys your own argument that there might be a God with the same cognitive abilities that you are using in your analogy.

But aside from that, your argument is still faulty. Let's see...I can see the difference between disorganization and the disorganized, the fool and his foolishness, the constrainer and the constrained...

Therefore, there exists a universal fool, disorganized, and who is constrained in its ability to create anything at all. The best such a being could do is look around and marvel at all there is, in its foolish amazement.

Why should your reasoned inference be worth more than mine?

 

[mohammed_beiruti]

I clipped # 1 because your post was a lot to digest in one sitting.

Okay, let's get a little more specific. You say anything "tangible you can experience" is not controversial.

First, I would disagree in the practical sense that, controversy arises all the time over tangible experiences. In a court of law, both sides may argue over a claim of hearing a gunshot in the night, as one example. The experiencer may be quite certain in their belief, until the defense produces a child that confesses to blowing a firecracker.

In regard to God, how does the person know that they are tangibly experiencing God, and not mental illness or a demon entity playing a trick?

we can't tangibly experience God,

let me show you a scene through Qura'an

Qura'an Ch.7 verse 143

143. When Moses came
To the place appointed by Us,
And his Lord addressed him,
He said: "O my Lord!
Show (Thyself) to me,
That I may look upon Thee."
God said, "By no means
Canst thou see Me (direct);
But look upon the mount;
If it abide In its place, then
Shalt thou see Me."
When his Lord manifested
His glory on the Mount,
He made it as dust,
And Moses fell down
In a swoon. When he
Recovered his senses he said:
"Glory be to Thee! To Thee
I turn in repentance, and I
Am the first to believe."


Moses(pbuh) could only hear God , but he couldn't see him.

Hearing God is Just only a privilege for Moses(pbuh), and it is not something that can any one do.

however, we can tangibily see his traces and signs.

excuseme, I am not going to debate tricks, and fireworks.

 

[mohammed_beiruti]

First, I'll point out that your first line is, "reasoning is used by the intellectual mankind only," which pretty much destroys your own argument that there might be a God with the same cognitive abilities that you are using in your analogy.

you mean it might there be another God beside the one I have reached by reasoning.

please confirm.

 

[mohammed_beiruti]

But aside from that, your argument is still faulty. Let's see...I can see the difference between disorganization and the disorganized, the fool and his foolishness, the constrainer and the constrained...

Therefore, there exists a universal fool, disorganized, and who is constrained in its ability to create anything at all. The best such a being could do is look around and marvel at all there is, in its foolish amazement.

Why should your reasoned inference be worth more than mine?

Ok lets take universal fool as an example.

what you mean by universal fool?

do you mean the system of this universe is acting foolishly ?

then can you please point out how does it acting foolishly?

 

[Thief]

we can't tangibly experience God,

let me show you a scene through Qura'an

Qura'an Ch.7 verse 143

143. When Moses came
To the place appointed by Us,
And his Lord addressed him,
He said: "O my Lord!
Show (Thyself) to me,
That I may look upon Thee."
God said, "By no means
Canst thou see Me (direct);
But look upon the mount;
If it abide In its place, then
Shalt thou see Me."
When his Lord manifested
His glory on the Mount,
He made it as dust,
And Moses fell down
In a swoon. When he
Recovered his senses he said:
"Glory be to Thee! To Thee
I turn in repentance, and I
Am the first to believe."


Moses(pbuh) could only hear God , but he couldn't see him.

Hearing God is Just only a privilege for Moses(pbuh), and it is not something that can any one do.

however, we can tangibily see his traces and signs.

excuseme, I am not going to debate tricks, and fireworks.

Do not excuse yourself......however....yeah....

What Moses did report we should take into consideration.

And the burning bush was....a trick?...fireworks?

 

[mohammed_beiruti]

Do not excuse yourself......however....yeah....

What Moses did report we should take into consideration.

And the burning bush was....a trick?...fireworks?

he saw his light heard his voice.

God's veil is light or fire.

 

[WanderingSoul]

Ok lets take universal fool as an example.

what you mean by universal fool?

do you mean the system of this universe is acting foolishly ?

then can you please point out how does it acting foolishly?

Oh, C'mon, Mohammed, you're just hairsplitting to obfuscate my point; and the point is, with your line of reasoning we can infer just about any being we want by objectifying our cognitive abilities.

Your whole analogy is weak, to say the least. Any introspection of our own cognitive abilities does not carry over to the physical universe needing a supreme being with cognitive abilities resembling our own.

I could infer practically any kind of being--a boogieman, for example--using the same line of thought.

 

[PolyHedral]

Actually, I know what would persuade of God's existence: moving Alpha Centuari to the other side of the sky.

 

[strikeviperMKII]

Actually, I know what would persuade of God's existence: moving Alpha Centuari to the other side of the sky.

How does that prove God at all?

 

[PolyHedral]

I'd be quite happy to call any being that can move stars across light-years "God" if they wanted me to.

 

[WanderingSoul]

Actually, I know what would persuade of God's existence: moving Alpha Centuari to the other side of the sky.

No, it slipped into a worm hole. God had nothing to do with it.

 

[mohammed_beiruti]

Oh, C'mon, Mohammed, you're just hairsplitting to obfuscate my point; and the point is, with your line of reasoning we can infer just about any being we want by objectifying our cognitive abilities.

Your whole analogy is weak, to say the least. Any introspection of our own cognitive abilities does not carry over to the physical universe needing a supreme being with cognitive abilities resembling our own.

I could infer practically any kind of being--a boogieman, for example--using the same line of thought.

you mean with my line of reasoning I can reach many Gods ? (including boogieman)

please confirm.

 

[Koldo]

Any being capable of performing a sequence of amazing miracles in front of me, like instantly transporting me to Tokyo, creating a giant pile of stone out of nowhere, making a huge building disappear in a second, and that called itself as God would be good enough for me.

Although i already do believe in God, but oh well...

 

[cottage]

Actually, we do; It doesn't. On the very, very small scale, objects can appear and disappear entirely spontaneously. Thief's argument falls apart completely.

But we don’t know that objects can appear and disappear spontaneously. We can’t say that anymore than Thief can argue that nothing moves without a cause (the Cosmological or Kalam argument).

 

[PolyHedral]

But we don’t know that objects can appear and disappear spontaneously. We can’t say that anymore than Thief can argue that nothing moves without a cause (the Cosmological or Kalam argument).

Theif does not have the maths backing him up. We absolutely know that Quantum Mechanics is correct, and the uncertainty principle is a consequence of QM.

 

[Willamena]

Theif does not have the maths backing him up. We absolutely know that Quantum Mechanics is correct, and the uncertainty principle is a consequence of QM.

But how does that indicate no cause for a thing popping into existence?

 

[openyourmind]

I'm short on time today, but I still want to start a new thread with these 2 questions:

What would you consider proof of God's existence?

And...

Do you believe that your "proof" would convince the majority of rational thinking people?

Thanks!

1) I have my proof, It was what I seen with my own eyes, heard with my ears, felt in my heart, lived in my life.
2)No, each must learn on there own.

Proof of god will come soon enough, and it will leave no doubt behind.

 

[cottage]

But how does that indicate no cause for a thing popping into existence?

Indeed!

 

[McBell]

What would convince you of God's existence?

I am fairly certain that an all knowing, all powerful god would not only know what evidence would convince me, but also be able to present said evidence to me.