What would it take for you to stop believing that god exists?

[Imagist]

We "know" things based on experience and knowledge --agreed? If the rattlesnake has bitten and caused no harm, then the knowledge of reality is that the rattlesnake has bitten and caused no harm. To extrapolate that claim is to either make a prediction or a generalization, both of which do not represent "knowledge", at least not well.

I agree that we know things based on experience and knowledge; however, the reason I gave the specific example was that it is from the real world - many people each year pick up rattlesnakes and other poisonous snakes, due to the following verse:

they will pick up snakes with their hands; and when they drink deadly poison, it will not hurt them at all; they will place their hands on sick people, and they will get well."

These people are often bitten and die of poison. These people claim to know that the snake's venom will not harm them, but in reality, they don't know anything of the sort. They may have had an experience of religious ecstasy, but to extrapolate from that all their other beliefs is obviously incorrect and, in this case, very harmful.

In contrast, I am aware of the general perception that rattlesnakes are poisonous, and the only reliable way to not die from a rattlesnake's bite is to avoid them (which doesn't include picking them up). This belief is based in evidence, though perhaps not very rigorous. If more rigorous evidence were needed, I am sure that I could find medical studies rather easily.

As for camel urine, if it has demonstrated itself to be a useful medicine in the past then I have no problem with declaring it to be "known" useful medicine (of course, my opinion of medicines in general is pretty low: camel urine may actually rate above some of them).

Again, this is a real life example: in a particular Hadith, Muhammed describes camel urine as being a useful medicine. Admittedly, most Muslims I have talked to about this take the reasonable stance that the Hadith is unreliable, but amazingly, many Muslims actually defend the prophet, claiming that camel urine has medicinal value! If anyone were to act on this belief, the results would certainly be harmful. In reality, camel urine is not only useless and medicine, but it is cytotoxic, meaning that it kills cells with which is comes in contact.

Your question, to me, looks like you are asking me to specify a quantity to how much I have experienced and learned in my life-time. I suspect, though, that you are asking where should the line be drawn in defining what qualifies as knowledge, and that has to be further qualified by what it is "to know". As I said above, the prediction and the generalization are two examples of things that do not represent "knowledge" well, even though we can rely on them to "know" reality. It's a good question, that I will think more about.

Perhaps I haven't been clear. I'm really asking the question in the context of faith: if we determine faith as a reasonable measure of whether something is knowledge, how do we determine what to have faith in? How does one determine that a virgin birth happened but it's not okay to handle rattlesnakes? How does one determine that it's right for women to wear burkas but that camel urine is a weak poison, not a medicine?

 

[rstrats]

Imagist,

re: "I was giving as an example that I can't choose what I believe, but I know what would cause me to believe in the existence of a god."
　
Since you aren’t able to consciously CHOOSE to believe things, I should think that it would be more accurate to say that you could only venture a guess as to what might cause a belief to be engendered in your mind. I don’t think that you can say that you "know" what would do that.

 

[mohammed_beiruti]

So now I ask theists: What evidence would it take for you to stop believing that god exists?

.

if the following attributes do not exist in him i will deny his divinity

[1] Say: He is Allah, the One and Only;

[2] Allah, the Eternal, Absolute;

[3] He begetteth not, nor is He begotten;

[4] And there is none like unto Him.

 

[BucephalusBB]

if the following attributes do not exist in him i will deny his divinity

Here you are giving us the fact that he exist by saying that attributes might or might not exist in him. And after that, you give a few attributes he needs to have for you before you will deny his divinity??"Rediculous attributes as well.. You will deny his divinity when there are 2 gods? Or when his name wasn't really Allah?

It's almost as if you are saying that if God isn't exactly what your religion is, you will deny him..

 

[mohammed_beiruti]

Here you are giving us the fact that he exist by saying that attributes might or might not exist in him. And after that, you give a few attributes he needs to have for you before you will deny his divinity??"Rediculous attributes as well.. You will deny his divinity when there are 2 gods? Or when his name wasn't really Allah?

It's almost as if you are saying that if God isn't exactly what your religion is, you will deny him..

ok, let me illustrate it.

**he must be one and only,... why?

because the real God must have an infinite power, which means: no other God may exist beside him.

**he must be Eternal and Absolute., why?

because a God must started the whole universe, and nothing was before him, and logically he must not have a temporary existance.

**He begetteth not, nor is He begotten.. why?

because if God begets children, here we will be talking about many tribes of gods living in the heavens.

**And there is none like unto Him.

as i said infinite power , no one can be like him.

 

[BucephalusBB]

We weren't talking about your only version of God, we were talking about God.

**he must be one and only,... why?

because the real God must have an infinite power, which means: no other God may exist beside him.

Fancy words, but when is a power "infinite"?
Also, asuming you mean infinite in time and possibillities, why must he be?

**he must be Eternal and Absolute., why?

because a God must started the whole universe, and nothing was before him, and logically he must not have a temporary existance.

This is not logically at all and I'll show you with a countering example.

I'll be using a cumputerprogrammer for this. He can easilly create a universe let's say in a game. He would be the designer and creator. He started something where there was nothing before, but the creator itself will die in this world.

**He begetteth not, nor is He begotten.. why?

because if God begets children, here we will be talking about many tribes of gods living in the heavens.

And if we don't talk about it, wich we do btw, it cannot be real?

**And there is none like unto Him.

as i said infinite power , no one can be like him.

Yeah, but I countered infinite power

 

[mohammed_beiruti]

We weren't talking about your only version of God, we were talking about God.

Fancy words, but when is a power "infinite"?
Also, asuming you mean infinite in time and possibillities, why must he be?



This is not logically at all and I'll show you with a countering example.

I'll be using a cumputerprogrammer for this. He can easilly create a universe let's say in a game. He would be the designer and creator. He started something where there was nothing before, but the creator itself will die in this world.


And if we don't talk about it, wich we do btw, it cannot be real?


Yeah, but I countered infinite power

sorry, can you please provide me with God "definition".

when we consider a God?, regardless you believe in one or not.


all i wanted you to know is, If there is a God, all other being must submit to him willingly or unwillingly.

this is what i meant by infinite power (very great one).

so asuming there is another God beside him , that means he doesn't have this great power and he lost his dominion

Qura'an Ch.17

[42] Say: if there had been (other) gods with Him, - as they say - behold, they would certainly have sought out a way to the Lord of the Throne!

[43] Glory to Him! He is high above all that they say! Exalted and Great (beyond measure)!

[44] The seven heavens and the earth, and all beings therein, declare His glory: there is not a thing but celebrates His praise; and yet ye understand not how they declare His glory! verily He is Oft-Forbearing, Most Forgiving!

I'll be using a cumputerprogrammer for this. He can easilly create a universe let's say in a game. He would be the designer and creator. He started something where there was nothing before, but the creator itself will die in this world.

first, let explain some thing ,

a programmer can't make a software(game) without a computer.
a programmer can't make a software(game) without electricity.
a programmer can't make a software(game) without a a sight or fingers.
a programmer can't make a software(game) without a breathe.
a programmer can't make a ..... enough.

a God depened on something and restricted by someone's power is not a God and he will be gone a way.

also, what is the purpose of a "Game"?

to have fun or to play ?

please read carefully the folloeing saigns and answer me.

Qura'an Ch.21

16 We created not the heaven and the earth and all that is between them in play.


17 If We had wished to find a pastime, We could have found it in Our presence - if We ever did.


18 Nay, but We hurl the true against the false, and it doth break its head and lo! it vanisheth. And yours will be woe for that which ye ascribe (unto Him).


19 Unto Him belongeth whosoever is in the heavens and the earth. And those who dwell in His presence are not too proud to worship Him, nor do they weary;


20 They glorify (Him) night and day; they flag not.


21 Or have they chosen gods from the earth who raise the dead ?


22 If there were therein gods beside Allah, then verily both (the heavens and the earth) had been disordered. Glorified be Allah, the Lord of the Throne, from all that they ascribe (unto Him).

 

[BucephalusBB]

sorry, can you please provide me with God "definition".

For this thread I picked a variety of concepts together.

all i wanted you to know is, If there is a God, all other being must submit to him willingly or unwillingly.

Nonsense, this is exactly why I said you are only using your own version of God. If God differs even a bit from that, you deny him. That's just weird.

this is what i meant by infinite power (very great one).

This why I dislike it when people use words they don't really mean. "Infinite" has nothing to do with "very great one". It's only confusing.

so asuming there is another God beside him , that means he doesn't have this great power and he lost his dominion

Still does not mean it cannot be God.

To let you know, I didn't read your quotes, removed them without looking.

first, let explain some thing ,

a programmer can't make a software(game) without a computer.
a programmer can't make a software(game) without electricity.
a programmer can't make a software(game) without a a sight or fingers.
a programmer can't make a software(game) without a breathe.
a programmer can't make a ..... enough.

a God depened on something and restricted by someone's power is not a God and he will be gone a way.

Then maybe you just ignored your creator. Maybe he nedes stuff to create. But the world is virtual and knows nothing of the real world. What if the same applied to us?

also, what is the purpose of a "Game"?

Just a game or our game of life?

please read carefully the folloeing saigns and answer me.

Again, I didn't read them, we are not only talking about your Allah here...

 

[cardero]

What would it take for you to stop believing that god exists?

Nothing short of the truth proven to me to BE the only entity in existence.

 

[Imagist]

So now I ask theists: What evidence would it take for you to stop believing that god exists?

if the following attributes do not exist in him i will deny his divinity

[1] Say: He is Allah, the One and Only;

[2] Allah, the Eternal, Absolute;

[3] He begetteth not, nor is He begotten;

[4] And there is none like unto Him.

That's not the question I was asking. And that's not even an answer to the question you thought I was asking.

 

[MoonWater]

all i wanted you to know is, If there is a God, all other being must submit to him willingly or unwillingly.

Why?, Why is submission so necessary and unavoidable?

 

[mohammed_beiruti]

Why?, Why is submission so necessary and unavoidable?

in islam we call the ungrateful "ka'fer", and this arabic word is derived from verb "kafar" and one of it's meaning is "to cover".

now , when someone deny the favors and grace bestowed to him from Allah and behaved ungratefully, we call him Ka'fer, meaning that he covered the truth.

Qura'an Ch.76 "The man"
1. Has there not been over Man a long period of Time, when he was nothing - (not even) mentioned?

2. Verily We created Man from a drop of mingled sperm, in order to try him: So We gave him (the gifts), of Hearing and Sight

3. We showed him the Way: whether he be grateful or ungrateful (rests on his will).

God will charge us with our deeds

for example.

if God made you rich, and gave you lot of money,

he will ask you, how did you spend it?

did you spend it to bribe somone ,or you spent it to joy your self in bars and night clubs and motels ...

or did you spend to help poor people and to donate charity projects

measure this example on every thing :the sight the hearing, knowledge, .....etc

submission to Allah is necessary to use the favor that he granted us in a good way.

 

[JMorris]

the abrahamic religions, as described in their own books, arent worthy of worship even if they were real, their no better than we are. jealous, spiteful, genocidal; thats not anything to worship

 

[MoonWater]

in islam we call the ungrateful "ka'fer", and this arabic word is derived from verb "kafar" and one of it's meaning is "to cover".

now , when someone deny the favors and grace bestowed to him from Allah and behaved ungratefully, we call him Ka'fer, meaning that he covered the truth.

Qura'an Ch.76 "The man"
1. Has there not been over Man a long period of Time, when he was nothing - (not even) mentioned?

2. Verily We created Man from a drop of mingled sperm, in order to try him: So We gave him (the gifts), of Hearing and Sight

3. We showed him the Way: whether he be grateful or ungrateful (rests on his will).

God will charge us with our deeds

for example.

if God made you rich, and gave you lot of money,

he will ask you, how did you spend it?

did you spend it to bribe somone ,or you spent it to joy your self in bars and night clubs and motels ...

or did you spend to help poor people and to donate charity projects

measure this example on every thing :the sight the hearing, knowledge, .....etc

submission to Allah is necessary to use the favor that he granted us in a good way.

That answers the question of necessity from your perspective but I still don't understand why you said it was "unavoidable". Why do you feel submission is "unavoidable"?

edit: I'm not looking to argue the point (I don't want to drag this thread off topic too much) I'm just looking for clarification is all.

 

[ProudMuslim]

When things start to come out of nothing, when i start seeing designs getting created without a designer, when 'life' is made instead of given.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

When things start to come out of nothing, when i start seeing designs getting created without a designer, when 'life' is made instead of given.

It seems those are more conclusions that a person would draw than specific evidence a person might be confronted with.

Say you're walking down the street (or doing something else in some other setting - you pick). You turn a corner, see _______ and because of it suddenly decide that God doesn't exist.

What would go in that blank for this scenario to work?

 

[Imagist]

When things start to come out of nothing, when i start seeing designs getting created without a designer, when 'life' is made instead of given.

Why can't things just have always been there?

Why can't things simply have arisen by chance rather than design?

What evidence do you have that life is given?

 

[mohammed_beiruti]

That answers the question of necessity from your perspective but I still don't understand why you said it was "unavoidable". Why do you feel submission is "unavoidable"?

edit: I'm not looking to argue the point (I don't want to drag this thread off topic too much) I'm just looking for clarification is all.

simply, because there will be a hereafter, Allah is the Master of the Day of Judgment,
at that day Allah will hold us responsible for our deeds.

If don't want to arque you may get an admonition

Qua'an CH.87
[9] Therefore give admonition in case the admonition profits (the hearer).

[10] The admonition will be received by those who fear (Allah):

[11] But it will be avoided by those most unfortunate ones,

[12] Who will enter the Great Fire,

[13] In which they will then neither die nor live.

[14] But those will prosper who purify themselves,

[15] And glorify the name of their Guardian-Lord, and (lift their hearts) in Prayer.

[16] Nay (behold), ye prefer the life of this world;

[17] But the Hereafter is better and more enduring.

[18] And this is in the Books of the earliest (Revelations),
[19] The Books of Ibrahim and Musa.

 

[ProudMuslim]

It seems those are more conclusions that a person would draw than specific evidence a person might be confronted with.

Say you're walking down the street (or doing something else in some other setting - you pick). You turn a corner, see _______ and because of it suddenly decide that God doesn't exist.

What would go in that blank for this scenario to work?

Nothing for me. My belief on God is based on something larger, philosophical rather than on my day to day experience.

Why can't things just have always been there?

Why can't things simply have arisen by chance rather than design?

What evidence do you have that life is given?

- Every design has a designer. Would you believe that a building got constructed without intervention?

- Because with chance you sometimes hit but other times miss, you can't get it right all the time. The world is perfectly designed, every creature has a purpose and a way of living.

- The proof is that life cannot be made, the scientists till this very day cant explain how life starts and how to make a life. That is a proof that life is given.

 

[Syphros]

I'm afraid you would have to obliterate us all. Your imagination restricts your belief (if you are indeed and atheist).

OR

If a magical flying cow speaking in tongues started stalking me...