What would you do if you found him/her cheating?

[Reverend Rick]

Some things have grandfather clauses, some don't.

I remember when they brought in the law here that said new drivers had to have zero blood alcohol. There was no exception on that for people like me saying "anyone affected by this who already had their licence when the law changed can stil have a couple of drinks."

If the law changed at midnight and you started driving home at 11:30 the old law should apply. The next day your driving would be a new episode and under the new law. That is apples and oranges compared to marriage. Previous marriages should have been grandfathered.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

If the law changed at midnight and you started driving home at 11:30 the old law should apply. The next day your driving would be a new episode and under the new law. That is apples and oranges compared to marriage. Previous marriages should have been grandfathered.

If that had happened, then I don't think we would have seen the extreme drop in spousal abuse and even murder of women by their spouses that we saw when no-fault divorce was introduced.

 

[Reverend Rick]

I don't think we would see as many divorces if the vow breaker got nothing either.

 

[Draka]

Well, looks like Kathryn and myself have some things in common.

I, too, can speak of what I have done instead of what I would do. I also did much the same as Kathryn.

I walked in to my bedroom, found them post-coital in my bed, did a tight-lipped slow breath through the nose, and simply said a quiet "get out" and turned around and went to sit on the couch. She came buzzing out, grasping to put on her clothes and saying "I'm leaving I'm leaving" and he strolled out behind her in just boxers with a grin on his face. She went out the door and I turned to him and said "I meant you, you get out." He proceeded to whistle a little tune while he went about the house getting his clothes (they must have had quite the time), put them on and left.

My divorce didn't leave him with the benefit of any money though. Ironically, he got a lawyer and I handled it myself. He came out of the divorce with just his sleeping bag and an old radio of his. He had to move back to his mother's. I got my restraining order against him (he was quite abusive as well), got custody, and even got him to sign over his parental rights entirely. I had had enough and when I finally stood up for myself I was a force to reckon with.

 

[Reverend Rick]

Well, looks like Kathryn and myself have some things in common.

I, too, can speak of what I have done instead of what I would do. I also did much the same as Kathryn.

I walked in to my bedroom, found them post-coital in my bed, did a tight-lipped slow breath through the nose, and simply said a quiet "get out" and turned around and went to sit on the couch. She came buzzing out, grasping to put on her clothes and saying "I'm leaving I'm leaving" and he strolled out behind her in just boxers with a grin on his face. She went out the door and I turned to him and said "I meant you, you get out." He proceeded to whistle a little tune while he went about the house getting his clothes (they must have had quite the time), put them on and left.

My divorce didn't leave him with the benefit of any money though. Ironically, he got a lawyer and I handled it myself. He came out of the divorce with just his sleeping bag and an old radio of his. He had to move back to his mother's. I got my restraining order against him (he was quite abusive as well), got custody, and even got him to sign over his parental rights entirely. I had had enough and when I finally stood up for myself I was a force to reckon with.

He got what he deserved.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I don't think we would see as many divorces if the vow breaker got nothing either.

And I think we'd see a lot more women murdered by their husbands if abused wives had to jump through all the hoops you want them to before getting a divorce.

 

[Reverend Rick]

And I think we'd see a lot more women murdered by their husbands if abused wives had to jump through all the hoops you want them to before getting a divorce.

Have you ever heard of seperation agreements or orders?

Jeff, a big charity I participate in is the battered womens shelter. We provide a safe envionment for women and children going through these problems. Legal help as well. Off duty police and deputy sheriffs take turns staying there. Many women get their lives back on track with a new career, child care, housing, education, you name it.

Why should the woman have to leave? She should keep her home and the abusive man should leave or go to prison.

 

[Reverend Rick]

I fail to see how a piece of paper that says you are divorced makes one safer. Divorced people are still capible of abuse and murder are they not?

I know many middle aged men would think twice about cheating if they thought they stood a chance to lose everything.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Have you ever heard of seperation agreements or orders?

Jeff, a big charity I participate in is the battered womens shelter. We provide a safe envionment for women and children going through these problems. Legal help as well. Off duty police and deputy sheriffs take turns staying there. Many women get their lives back on track with a new career, child care, housing, education, you name it.

Why should the woman have to leave? She should keep her home and the abusive man should leave or go to prison.

It's great that you're involved in that, but those sorts of resources aren't available everywhere.

Often, victims still have feelings for their abusers. Maybe unwise and misplaced feelings, but feelings nonetheless. It cam be hard enough to convince a victim of abuse to "abandon" her spouse. If leaving means stripping him of everything he has as well, then she may stay out of sympathy... at her peril.

But the fact remains that no-fault divorce does save lives, as the stats that Songbird gave indicate. As much as you'd like victims of abuse to do what you think is right, I think that the evidence shows a direct correlation: the harder you make it to leave, the fewer people who truly need to leave will do so.

 

[illykitty]

I'd probably get very angry and upset, hit him in the face (and/or sensitive area) then divorce. (For anyone that watch anime, think of inner Sakura in Naruto! )

Loyalty is one of the most important things to me in a relationship. If there's no loyalty, then what's the point? He knows that well and still wanted to get married. So he knows what will come if he betrays me...

If you don't love someone anymore, it's best to tell them than to go behind their back. That's the liar and coward's way!

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I fail to see how a piece of paper that says you are divorced makes one safer. Divorced people are still capible of abuse and murder are they not?

I think it depends on the rights associated with marriage where you live, but this is more about division of assets than divorce per se. Even if you have very good reasons to leave, in the system you propose, unless you have enough money in the bank to fight a long, contested legal battle to establish that your spouse is a slimeball, you're going to have nothing if you leave.

A lawyer usually won't take someone on as a client without a retainer, which can be thousands of dollars. For a lot of people, it would take a very long time to save up that kind of money.

I know many middle aged men would think twice about cheating if they thought they stood a chance to lose everything.

And I know many people would treat their spouses a lot better if they didn't think that the spouse would never, ever leave.

It was a real eye-opener when I started to see how prevalent it was among my in-laws, most of whom were Catholics and opposed to divorce, just how downright crappy a lot of them treated their spouses. Nothing that directly violated their wedding vows (except for the ones like promising to love, honour, cherish, respect, etc. - you know, the ones that don't leave a whole lot of admissible evidence when they're breached), but they would just constantly snipe at each other and make each other's lives miserable, knowing that the other one will just sit there and take it.

That's not the sort of marital environment I want to encourage.

 

[Reverend Rick]

The issues I have when discussing or debating marriage is the definition of marriage. To me marriage is much more than a legal agreement. I made a vow to God as well as my wife to stay with her so long as we shall live. I'm not going to throw our relationship away. It takes hard work to make a relationship work. I have to listen to what my wife wants and thinks. I have to make sacrifices and do what is best for us, not just for me. It is a constant challenge. People who stay in long term relationships do not do so just because it just worked out that way.

Once again, for better or worse, for richer or poorer, in sickness and in health. It takes a level of maturity to accept that everything is not going to make you happy all the time or you have to do things you would rather not to keep the other person engaged.

Mostly, you have to quit focusing on yourself the majority of the time. I have learned, happy wife, happy life. Spoil your woman rotton where no other man would do half what you would for her. When she is dead wrong, you have to call her on it. Just make sure the situation is actually the way you perceive it first. It takes a real man to keep his wife for decades. Your wife has to respect you, trust you and it takes alot of hard work to earn that respect.

You cannot however kiss their butts and allow them to always get their way either. They will take you for granted. My wife knows I will walk out the door in a heart beat and never blink an eye. She also knows I will listen and try to understand and if I am wrong, I will apologise and work hard not to make the same mistake again.

Mostly, you have to learn to make her feel like the most beautiful woman on earth no matter what she is wearing or how many pounds she may have picked up over the holidays.

You have to be unconditionally supportive and say at least 3 positive things about her for every complaint you may want to discuss.

Ask her what her dreams and desires are and put them above your own.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

What the heck does any of that have to do with no-fault divorce? You're arguing for the "gotcha" that will keep a person trapped in a marriage when their spouse *doesn't* do all those things you say are so important.

In your arrangement, if a man doesn't give a fig about his wife's dreams, too bad for her - she should just suck it up and deal, right?

Your rhetoric doesn't mesh up with what you're proposing.

 

[Reverend Rick]

What the heck does any of that have to do with no-fault divorce? You're arguing for the "gotcha" that will keep a person trapped in a marriage when their spouse *doesn't* do all those things you say are so important.

In your arrangement, if a man doesn't give a fig about his wife's dreams, too bad for her - she should just suck it up and deal, right?

Your rhetoric doesn't mesh up with what you're proposing.

No, I want the responsible person to prevail and the oath breaker to pay the price. Just because the law allows a man to get away with abuse, you want to dismantle marriage into something akin to going steady.

Abusive men should go to prision not continue to harm innocent people. Abused women should be able to remain in their home with their children safe from harm or financial ruin. Marital property should remain with the person who kept their marriage vows. If you break them, you should be entitled to nothing.

 

[Reverend Rick]

"Trapped in a marriage sounds rather juvenile to me. It sounds like anyone who looks at marriage as a trap is code for not taking resonsibility for their agreements. What part of for better or worse did you not understand when you uttered those words?

Did you even mean those words when you spoke them? Perhaps you did not understand what you agreed to?

The only reason a person needs to be divorced is to get married again. A person is not required to live with their spouse if they are having issues. Why the disreguard for trying to make things work?

This generation looks at marriage like a paper plate. Disposable marriage is not an improvement, it is the perfect example of not taking any responsibility for agreements.

No one takes marriage seriously any more why get married in the first place?

REALLY WHY BOTHER GETTING MARRIED?

 

[BeckyRose1998]

How did The Sum of Awe's thread become about divorce? : o

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

No, I want the responsible person to prevail and the oath breaker to pay the price. Just because the law allows a man to get away with abuse, you want to dismantle marriage into something akin to going steady.

No, I don't.

Look - as someone who's going through a "no fault" divorce right now, I can tell you that it's not just a matter of picking up and walking away on a whim. It's a long, difficult, expensive, draining process. It's not something I would wish on anyone, and it's certainly not something I would ever try to make worse for anyone.

Abusive men should go to prision not continue to harm innocent people. Abused women should be able to remain in their home with their children safe from harm or financial ruin. Marital property should remain with the person who kept their marriage vows. If you break them, you should be entitled to nothing.

I feel that my wife broke her marriage vows: she vowed to love, honour, respect and cherish me. The reality ended up being very different from this. I tried for years to fix the marriage, and only left when I realized that my love for her was gone, there was no hope of reconciliation, and life with her was unbearable.

Now... how would I go about demonstrating in court that she broke her vows? I have no idea, especially since in my case, the question of whether she did break them isn't one where I can point to any one specific event, but where this fact emerged through incremental evidence over time. I wouldn't even know where to begin arguing my case in a court of law.

That being said, I have no interest in taking her to court. I don't want to take away everything she has; I just don't want to be with her any more.

"Trapped in a marriage sounds rather juvenile to me. It sounds like anyone who looks at marriage as a trap is code for not taking resonsibility for their agreements. What part of for better or worse did you not understand when you uttered those words?

Did you even mean those words when you spoke them? Perhaps you did not understand what you agreed to?

Damn straight I did. I only left after she failed to uphold her end of the bargain and I exhausted every avenue I could find to fix things. And even then, I waited a few years just to make sure.

The only reason a person needs to be divorced is to get married again. A person is not required to live with their spouse if they are having issues. Why the disreguard for trying to make things work?

You're not just talking about divorce, though. Your argument has touched on things like division of property, too. If a person is going to make a life for themselves, have a roof over their head and food in the cupboard, the question of how the pie gets split up are very important, even if the couple stays estranged forever and never divorces.

And that's not the only reason a person needs to be divorced. Off the top of my head, one big reason has to do with wills and estates: here (I don't know US law), a spouse - even an estranged spouse - is entitled to a certain amount of a person's estate. If I want to leave everything to my sister or to my charity of choice, I can't... not until I get divorced.

Another reason: I've found out that a lot of banks (up here, anyhow) just won't grant a mortgage to someone who's separated and who doesn't have a separation agreement in place. Since there's nothing compelling someone to enter into a separation agreement, if a person wants to buy a house or condo but the spouse refuses to sign a separation agreement, he or she can file for divorce and settle the matter.

 

[Reverend Rick]

I feel that my wife broke her marriage vows: she vowed to love, honour, respect and cherish me. The reality ended up being very different from this. I tried for years to fix the marriage, and only left when I realized that my love for her was gone, there was no hope of reconciliation, and life with her was unbearable.

If that is how I felt, I would do the same brother. I'm sorry I came down so hard on you. Another thing I thought about was, the laws have changed for the majority not people like me.

 

[LegionOnomaMoi]

Let's say you come home from a long, hard day of work. You enter your bedroom to find your wife/husband sleeping with another guy/girl, both nude in your bed. Both happy, your mate with an evil smile.

What would you do?

Kill him.

 

[InformedIgnorance]

What about her?