What writings were left out of the Bible

[BruceDLimber]

Hi!

Even though one of the references I gave was from the Catholic point of view ?

As I thought I'd made clear, my point was based on the Jewish and Christian scriptures, not on any particular subgroup's point of view.

And I trust that for Christians, the Bible tends to be the standard for the teachings in question....

Regards,

Bruce

 

[James the Persian]

Hi!


As I thought I'd made clear, my point was based on the Jewish and Christian scriptures, not on any particular subgroup's point of view.

And I trust that for Christians, the Bible tends to be the standard for the teachings in question....

Regards,

Bruce

No, for many Christians the standard would be Holy Tradition, of which the Scriptures are a part (the most important part, but still just a part). Obviously, the question of what is or is not Scripture cannot be defined by Scripture - that's the circular reasoning of extreme sola scripturalists. The vast majority of Christians accept the view I just outlined above : RCs, Orthodox and Oriental Orthodox. Sola scripturalism is confined to the Protestant world.

James

 

[BruceDLimber]

Greetings!

I trust that for Christians, the Bible tends to be the standard for the teachings in question....

No, for many Christians the standard would be Holy Tradition, of which the Scriptures are a part (the most important part, but still just a part).

Then that is a HUGE problem because we humans are nothing if not fallible, and our track record makes it abundantly clear just how VERY wrong we--and in particular church decisions!--often are! I could bore you to death with examples!

Hence the critical importance of relying on scripture for one's spiritual basis.

Peace,

Bruce

 

[James the Persian]

Greetings!



Then that is a HUGE problem because we humans are nothing if not fallible, and our track record makes it abundantly clear just how VERY wrong we--and in particular church decisions!--often are! I could bore you to death with examples!

Hence the critical importance of relying on scripture for one's spiritual basis.

Peace,

Bruce

How do you define what is Scripture? If you're relying on Scripture alone, what is it that Scripture relies upon? How is Scripture more reliable than any other aspect of Holy Tradition? Come to that, what do you understand by the term Holy Tradition? I have a feeling from the wording of your reply that it is very different from what we mean when we use the term.

You're quite right that humans are fallible, but you betray a serious misunderstanding of Christian theology and ecclesiology if you think that the Church is nothing but a group of fallible humans. And if She were just a group of fallible humans, how could She have compiled a collection of infallible Scripture? It makes no sense whatsoever and is the downfall of the sola scripturalist position. Sola scriptura attempts to do away with Catholic (and I do not mean Roman) ecclesiology and then promptly falls down because the Scripture itself cannot exist appart from Catholic Holy Tradition.

I look forward to seeing how you reply to my questions.

James

 

[BruceDLimber]

Hi, James!

How do you define what is Scripture? If you're relying on Scripture alone, what is it that Scripture relies upon? How is Scripture more reliable than any other aspect of Holy Tradition?

Having never been a Catholic, "holy tradition" is a null term for me, with no special meaning or significance. It may well signify something special to you, but I can assure you that to an outsider, it tends not to fly.

"Scripture" is generally defined by each religion as to what does or does not fall under this definition. I'm sure you're aware of examples already. (And yes, I stipulate that in cases of schism such as the Catholic/Protestant one, various subgroups disagree on what does and does not qualify. But by and large, the point holds.)

And the primary reason why scripture is in a different category generally from human decisions is that (by the definition we use, at least) scripture is God-sent and hence Divinely Revealed. So as revealed, it has as its imprimatur and athority God Himself! Thus to answer your question, scripture relies upon God.

Works for us.

Regards,

Bruce

 

[James the Persian]

Hi, James!


Having never been a Catholic, "holy tradition" is a null term for me, with no special meaning or significance. It may well signify something special to you, but I can assure you that to an outsider, it tends not to fly.

"Scripture" is generally defined by each religion as to what does or does not fall under this definition. I'm sure you're aware of examples already. (And yes, I stipulate that in cases of schism such as the Catholic/Protestant one, various subgroups disagree on what does and does not qualify. But by and large, the point holds.)

And the primary reason why scripture is in a different category generally from human decisions is that (by the definition we use, at least) scripture is God-sent and hence Divinely Revealed. So as revealed, it has as its imprimatur and athority God Himself! Thus to answer your question, scripture relies upon God.

Works for us.

Regards,

Bruce

You don't have to be an RC to have an understanding of what Holy Tradition is. I'm Orthodox, for instance. Holy Tradition is, simply put, the teaching of Christ as received by the Apostles whether written (as in the Scriptures and works of the early Fathers) or oral. One important point to note is that even the Scriptures were at one point no more than oral teachings, not being written down until much later. Unless you can come up with a consistent reason why, for instance, Hebrews is part of Scripture whereas the Didache is not (but it is part of Holy Tradition) you are left with the problem of clinging to an arbitrary group of texts as God-inspired for no apparent reason. For us, part of Holy Tradition is the process by which Scripture was identified. If you reject that, however, you might as well throw out the canon itself. The important point is that Holy Tradition, whatever its form, also rests on God. Christ wrote no texts so there is no real difference in kind between the texts of Scripture and the oral teachings handed down to us. I would also note that the Jews also have a concept of oral teachings to be followed alongside Scripture as, indeed, do Muslims despite their belief, in contrast to Judaism and Christianity, that their Scriptures were delivered direct from heaven. It's not until the Reformation that you see any sign of something like sola scriptura. I don't doubt that Scripture is in a different category from human decisions, but Holy Tradition is not comprised of human decisions but rather is in the category that includes Scripture within it - revelation from God handed down to us via the Apostles.

James

 

[BruceDLimber]

Hi, James!

I see what you're saying; thank you.

This is an area, then, where we Baha'is are extremely fortunate! Because in our case, all our scriptures came directly from the three Central Figures of our Faith, Who either wrote them down personally or dictated them followed by checking them and affixing Their seals to show approval of each transcription.

And this amounts to fully 200 volumes, a truly staggering amount of scripture! They are all currently between 84 and 162 years old.

It's important to note that we have the original manuscript of every one of these 200 volumes (in our archives at the Baha'i World Center, doubtless with microfilmed copies elsewhere), so there's no question whatever as to what was said! Indeed, anything for which we do NOT have the original manuscript is not considered Baha'i scripture no matter how "inspirational" it might be!

In addition, the Baha'i Faith is the only great religion whose Founder explicitly appointed (in writing, in His Will and Testament) His successor and sole official interpreter and specifically guaranteed the correctness of that individual's interpretations (which was then repeated by this individual for his successor). So we have a wealth of 100% reliable explanation and commentary on the Baha'i scriptures.

All these writings are, of course available online for anyone to peruse! Just two of the places are:
- www.reference.bahai.org (this site is multilingual) and
- www.bahaistudy.org (this site also has videos and talking books).

We are truly blessed to be living in such a wonderful time, with circumstances so propitious!

Best,

Bruce

 

[Katzpur]

Oh ok. Gotcha....what do you think about this? Right, wrong, or divine providence?

Uh... I think I don't understand the question. Could you rephrase it in such a way that it ties to the subject matter of this thread. Then I'll be happy to answer it.