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What WW2 actually was: a war between banking powers

Estro Felino

Believer in free will
Premium Member

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
The English wouldn't have given up over someone taking a volunteer *** whooping. But they did sign the Rowletts Act a couple years before Gandhi's efforts, and that act itself was an extension of an act that was a response to violent uprisings that had been shaking and weakening English control over India for a few decades up to that point. When Gandhi came around it was already past the point of no return, but it works better for the bourgeoisie for us to think peaceful no cooperation is what got it done.
No doubt that there was a combination of causes, but the simple fact is that Gandhi's non-cooperative non-violent actions and teachings had a major effect. An excellent book that well covers this is "Gandhi and Churchill: The Epic Rivalry That Destroyed An Empire and Forged a New Age" by Arthus Herman. A good friend of mine studied in India on this very topic.

BTW, why didn't you answer my questions?
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
@Estro Felino....
It occurs to me that the Conspiracy Of Bankers (COB)
is a poor explanation because it lacks evidence.
Better...
WW2 was caused by socialism. Consider...
Hitler's National Socialist German Workers' Party
conspired with the USSR & Italy to conquer Europe.
Capitalist countries (replete with many bankers)
fought those evil ********.

Socialists started it.
Capitalists finished it.
 

Stevicus

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
Well...my point wasn't that Chamberlain was complicit, but moreso that there is a tangled web of complicity.
There are plenty of less well-known individuals within the French government and command structures I could wave at too. However, I did find the linked information interesting, and would be more than happy to deep dive on it if you want to start a thread. I'm not sure this is the one to go too deep, but certainly I would say that any suggestion that Chamberlain is responsible for WW2 due to an unwillingness to stand up to the Nazis is completely overblown, which I think you'd agree with.

Yes, I agree. Another point that should be raised is that no one really expected the Germans to be so successful in the early years. Such as the debacle in France in 1940.

Weirdly, perhaps, I've done much more of a deep dive on German arms/armour and production that on the Allied one. So at a broad level I wouldn't dispute what you're saying about Allied preparation, and I know the RAF in particular made good use of the extra time. French improvements were somewhat negated by their unwillingness to couple their improved position on paper with improved strategy, their willingness to fritter away their best units in small groups to bolster their worst ones, etc.

However, I think you're overselling German preparedness. You mentioned 5 panzer divisions being available in 1938. Technically, that's true, but the fourth and fifth panzer divisions weren't established until late '38 (November). Further, the personal for those divisions included large number of men from the Sudetenland, so talking about them as a viable force prior to that annexation is misguided.

Looking at the divisional preparedness further, it's worth noting that the vast majority of tanks in the five tank divisions by the end of 1938 were Panzer I and Panzer II tanks. These were next to useless against enemy tanks. It was actually German combined arms operations (including air force and artillery) that carried the day in France, rather than the sheer power of Panzers.
By the end of 1938, Germany had a nominal strength of roughly 3500 tanks (of course, not all were operational, but let's go with that). Of that, only about 10% were Panzer III or Panzer IV models.

In terms of air preparedness, there was a lot of messaging from the Luftwaffe indicating their superiority to all other European air forces, and the ability of the Luftwaffe to force Britain out of any conflict if required. However, Goring in particular was full of crap, and was playing internal politics to get more of the overall military budget.

Further, while the Luftwaffe were quite revolutionary in terms of their close support actions in Poland, and their integrated combined arms offence, it was as much accidental as planned. Goring in particular still favoured strategic bombing over tactical support, and the weather in Poland impacted on the initial invasion plans by the Luftwaffe. The engagements involving air support went so well that this tactic was left in place for the remainder of the Battle for Poland (basically - I'm oversimplifying here). This was made possible by the obsolete equipment of the Polish air force, and the inability of the Polish Air Force to mount a credible defence over time. Ground forces overrun enough of the Polish infrastructure that they ended up withdrawing considerable numbers of aircraft from the country entirely, further reducing opposition, and allowing Ju-87 dive bombers to swan around as mobile artillery. The reputation of that aircraft was enhanced beyond capability by a conflict where the Germans had complete air superiority, but the Stuka was not a credible weapon in a war setting of contested air superiority.

The Germans weren't ready for war in 1938. They weren't really ready in 1939, truth be told. But they were ready for a localised war, and they had convinced themselves that they could use a mix of politics, terror and actual armed capability (particularly aerial) to keep it localised.

I agree with most of this. I think the Germans knew that the clock was ticking and that if they had any aggressive impulses, they needed to strike fast and hard and gain as much as they could in as little time as possible. They didn't have the luxury of overseas empires teeming with resources. Plus, they just didn't have the oil.

I'd have to think about the Russian angle. But I agree that the Treaty of Versailles was a major contributing factor in the rise of the Nazis, and the move of the Nazis to initiate WW2. It was punitive in a way that didn't help stability at all, but it was also punitive in a way the German people were never going to be able to accept. For all of Germany's faults, there was plenty of shared responsibility for the commencement of WW1, but it was largely they who bore the brunt of it.

I think Britain and France perhaps wanted too much by wanting a balance of power on the European continent while still being able to keep their empires intact and stable - which was more than they were capable of doing. That's why they needed an alliance with Russia (and later, America) to stand against Germany. For their part, Germany and Austria wanted economic control over the Balkans, which is what triggered the Serbs and their larger Russian allies. For whatever reason, the French and British felt threatened by this, as well as the construction of the Berlin-Baghdad Railway.

I suspect...but will obviously never know...that Hitler was looking for loose ends regardless of whether they existed, and would have manufactured them if they didn't. For all the way things are portayed now, the rise of the Nazis didn't fix the economic woes of Germany. What they did do was re-establish a strong national identity. But Hitler knew he needed more than that to fix the economy. Which is the main reason he was upset after Munich. Whether or not they were really ready for war, he knew they'd need access to Czech economic strength, along with various other items of consideration, be it Lithanian ports, or the Danzig Corridor. He would have 'stopped' only when German economic power was established. And one can only wonder if he would have stopped then, since at that point they would have been truly ready for war.

It seemed to me that Hitler wanted to restore what Germany (and by extension, Austria) had prior to the outbreak of WW1. That's why Poland was a major sore point, and it's why he considered Czechoslovakia to be a traditional protectorate, since that's how it was before. As an ardent nationalist, he likely thought it absurd that these nations were even independent at all, since they weren't during most of his lifetime. Similarly, Stalin seemed to have a similar goal, since he likely saw the USSR as the successor state to the Russian Empire, so he wanted everything that the Russian Empire had - including Finland, the Baltics, and their part of Poland.

He may have seen Britain and France as simply meddling, not because they were really all that interested in defending Czech or Polish sovereignty, but that they were just trying to mess with Germany. The fact that they didn't really do anything militarily to help Poland, as well as the fact that they didn't declare war on the USSR when they attacked Poland, can be cited as evidence that Britain and France's motivations were more anti-German than pro-Polish.

It's an interesting angle. It's also worth remembering that each of the capitalist countries had their own independent ideological forces to contend with, whether that was Mosley's fascists in England, or communist party operatives, or republicans in Ireland, or...
None of them operated in a vacuum, and the policies of individual countries could be as influenced by smaller domestic ideological conflicts as major international ones.

In the U.S., we probably felt a bit far removed from the issues facing Europe. Towards the end of the 19th and early 20th centuries, our relations with Britain had improved immensely, and our economic interests were becoming more and more intertwined. But the U.S. seemed to perceive and understand the world on a level different from that of Britain. For example, I was reading about how US servicemen who served in WW1 were in Germany after the war. There, they found a clean, orderly society filled with friendly people, making them wonder "Well, why did the British hate these wonderful people so much?" Plus, America's large population of German-Americans who melded in with the Anglo-Americans also influenced many Americans' views on Germans and Germany.

I guess that's one thing about America which is different from Europe, and it's probably why Americans didn't really relate to or truly understand the nationalist rivalries which affected Europe.
 

Estro Felino

Believer in free will
Premium Member
@Estro Felino....
It occurs to me that the Conspiracy Of Bankers (COB)
is a poor explanation because it lacks evidence.
Better...
WW2 was caused by socialism. Consider...
Hitler's National Socialist German Workers' Party
conspired with the USSR & Italy to conquer Europe.
Capitalist countries (replete with many bankers)
fought those evil ********.

Socialists started it.
Capitalists finished it.

It turns out the war is what pushed the US to cross the Atlantic to defeat those regimes.

It turns out my country is still a fascistic state: all codes (or nearly) which are still into force today were created during the fascistic period.
The penal code, the civil code, the civil procedure code and others. Not to mention the administrative law apparatus, which is still into force today.

It's not all either black or white.
It's not that that all bankers are evil.
 
With all due respect, do you mind me asking your cultural-religious background?

I do hope you're approaching this issue from a third and an impartial perspective. :)

My background is irrelevant and I don’t put much online due to living somewhere that what I post online can get me in trouble. Well I’ve actually just moved somewhere else but am still cautious as I still need to go back there now and again.

Basically I’m an atheist of mixed background who has lived many places.

This is one


That doesn’t say what you claimed. All seem to say something similar.

Which is: a) Jews are being persecuted and b) there are 6 million Jews in the place persecuting them and c) this is bad

This is a non-trivial difference from your claim “Six million Jews are to be exterminated"
 

Estro Felino

Believer in free will
Premium Member
My background is irrelevant and I don’t put much online due to living somewhere that what I post online can get me in trouble. Well I’ve actually just moved somewhere else but am still cautious as I still need to go back there now and again.

Basically I’m an atheist of mixed background who has lived many places.
I asked you what your nationality, your mothertoungue are. ;)
This is a non-trivial difference from your claim “Six million Jews are to be exterminated"
It's written in countless articles that professor provided.
This is one of them. You can check on it, yourself. NYT, July 20, 1921.

The New York times 1921-07-20 [2] - AVG Secure Browser 26_05_2023 16_22_36.png




Even if, with all due respect, I suspect that no matter how many pieces of evidence I bring you, you will always ignore them or deny them.
 
It's written in countless articles that professor provided.
This is one of them. You can check on it, yourself. NYT, July 20, 1921.

That says the same thing and that they all use the same number just reflects an idea that there were 6 million Jews in the USSR/Russia

You are misrepresenting the articles and everyone can see that.
 

Stevicus

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
He became who he is in a socialist society.
Russia is capitalist now, however business owners
must toe the line, or their company is nationalized.
A mixed economy, as they say.
When USSR invaded Afghanistan, how was it that
capitalists started this war?

As I recall, they were trying to stop a rebellion in that country. Capitalists involved in the illicit drug trade saw Afghanistan as an asset, and the prospect of Soviet control would have quashed that notion. With help from their capitalist brethren in the U.S., the capitalist rebels in Afghanistan successfully resisted the Soviet invasion, which would ultimately leave the capitalists in charge in Afghanistan, which then became a safe haven for terrorist operations which turned against the United States.

Capitalists are, on the whole, quite foolish when it comes to geopolitics. Their hatred of socialism is so great that they were willing to jump into bed with almost anyone if they thought they could help in their struggle against socialism, no matter if they were butchers like Pinochet or the Shah of Iran - or the religious fanatics who would become the Taliban.

It's socialist.

If it is, it's an anachronistic version of socialism. It's socialist in the same way the Antebellum South could be called a "liberal democracy."

The No True Socialist fallacy, eh.
Could I claim "No True Capitalist" if I call Russia a "military fortress under siege"?

In a sense, they were a military fortress under siege. From their perception, they were encircled by enemies and needed to push outward and form buffer zones in order to protect their nation. The U.S. incorrectly perceived that as a threat to global stability, believing that the Soviets planned to conquer the entire world. It was based in this false belief that we came to the brink of total world destruction, along with millions dying in various hot wars which were part of the overall Cold War.

No disputes over resources across all the planet, eh.

Not if they're all part of the same country. Do we see Illinois and Indiana fighting over resources? If all countries were part of the United States of Earth, then it could work the same way.

Such certainty that your dream would've inexorably happen.

Well, there's no way we'll ever know now.

Ditching capitalism for socialism has never gone well.

Blindly sticking to capitalism and refusing to compromise with the working classes also has had negative consequences.
 

Estro Felino

Believer in free will
Premium Member
That says the same thing and that they all use the same number just reflects an idea that there were 6 million Jews in the USSR/Russia

You are misrepresenting the articles and everyone can see that.
There were not 6 million Jews in Russia. I am sorry.
And it's a little bit distorted since what they are claiming is that the Leninist regime was as anti-Semitic as the Czarist regime. If not more.

Is it historically reliable, in your opinion?

And do you really think it's a coincidence that in the Holocaust, six million Jews died?
I don't believe in coincidences, I am sorry. I won't let be duped by anyone. I am a very educated person.
 

Stevicus

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
@Estro Felino....
It occurs to me that the Conspiracy Of Bankers (COB)
is a poor explanation because it lacks evidence.
Better...
WW2 was caused by socialism. Consider...
Hitler's National Socialist German Workers' Party
conspired with the USSR & Italy to conquer Europe.
Capitalist countries (replete with many bankers)
fought those evil ********.

Socialists started it.
Capitalists finished it.

The NSDAP was profoundly anti-communist, while the Communist Party of Germany was profoundly anti-fascist. They openly fought each other in the streets prior to Hitler's rise to power, and the Communists were the original "antifa" that everyone is so up in arms over.

I've speculated on what might have happened if history took a different turn, and instead of Hitler's Nazis taking power, Ernst Thälmann and the Communists took over instead. This would have certainly meant a close alliance between Germany and the USSR, as comrades in solidarity against the capitalist imperialist powers of the West. With Germany's industrial, technological, and scientific prowess, along with a long tradition of military discipline, combined with the vast resources of the USSR, they would have been an unstoppable force.

If the socialists had started it, the capitalists never would have stood a chance.

Surely you're not saying the Nazis were socialist. I hope you're not suggesting that, because I thought we had dispensed with that particular piece of misinformation ages ago.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
Blindly sticking to capitalism and refusing to compromise with the working classes also has had negative consequences.
Tis the opposite of blind to observe that socialism in
every country that tried it has been a cesspool of
oppression & economic failure.
I stick with capitalism because it has some successes.
Your belief in socialism mimics religious faith, ie,
belief without evidence.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
The NSDAP was profoundly anti-communist...
Typical red herring. Socialism isn't communism.

If the socialists had started it, the capitalists never would have stood a chance.
Socialists did start it.
Their only problem was that their treachery defeated them.
(Greedy socialists wanted what others had...even other socialists.)
Sure Hitler + Italy + USSR + Japan would've been more formidable.
USA would've needed more nukes.
Although firestorms were deadlier & cheaper, nukes got the enemy's attention.
 

Estro Felino

Believer in free will
Premium Member
The NSDAP was profoundly anti-communist, while the Communist Party of Germany was profoundly anti-fascist. They openly fought each other in the streets prior to Hitler's rise to power, and the Communists were the original "antifa" that everyone is so up in arms over.

I've speculated on what might have happened if history took a different turn, and instead of Hitler's Nazis taking power, Ernst Thälmann and the Communists took over instead. This would have certainly meant a close alliance between Germany and the USSR, as comrades in solidarity against the capitalist imperialist powers of the West. With Germany's industrial, technological, and scientific prowess, along with a long tradition of military discipline, combined with the vast resources of the USSR, they would have been an unstoppable force.

If the socialists had started it, the capitalists never would have stood a chance.

Surely you're not saying the Nazis were socialist. I hope you're not suggesting that, because I thought we had dispensed with that particular piece of misinformation ages ago.

The political difference between Europe and America is that America cannot think in terms of multipartitism.
It's either all black or all white. The American political mindset is made up of an insuperable dualism. Black or white. Dem or GOP.

In Continental Europe especially Germany, Russia, Italy, Spain etc...there have always been countless parties. So anything is nuanced in politics.

There wasn't just one socialism in Europe. There were several, especially after the Bolshevik Revolution that caused a war between two kinds of socialism.
Mussolini was heavily influenced by a Russian intellectual, Angelica Balabanoff. She was the one who taught Mussolini anything about Socialism. But Mussolini, even if he was an atheist, wanted to preserve the alliance with the Social doctrine of the RCC, while Russian bolshevism was nihilistic and anti-Christian.

That's why he was terrified that those banking powers could fund a Bolshevik Revolution in Italy. And they were succeeding, in 1919-1920.
So he founded the Fascist Party with the Italian Nationalists in order to fight that radical Communist, nihilistic wind, coming from Russia.
But the matrix of this party remained socialistic: for instance it was always against the wealthy and the financial élites, dissed by the Duce 24/7.
Nevertheless the fasci succeeded in suppressing the attempt of Bolshevik revolution. And channeled the people's rage.
The king gave Mussolini the power because he was terrified by a Bolshevik revolution. Mussolini was the lesser of two evils.
The queen, his wife was a Slavic princess who had studied in Saint Petersburg.
The king did know that all the liberal, neo-liberistic and capitalistic parties would be swept away by the Fascist regime.


Even Balabanoff fled Russia, after finding out how terrifying the Trotskist regime was.
Stalin succeeded thanks to the terror regime Lenin and Trotsky had created.
 
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Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
The political difference between Europe and America is that America cannot think in terms of multipartitism.
It's either all black or all white. The American political mindset is made up of an insuperable dualism. Black or white. Dem or GOP.
What of your Italy, which loves fascism & Putin?
That's worse than "black & white"....it's just blackness.
 

Estro Felino

Believer in free will
Premium Member
What of your Italy, which loves fascism & Putin?
That's worse than "black & white"....it's just blackness.

Whenever I go to vote, there are at least 15-20 parties on the ballot and I need to choose one. Just one.

It's not "either you side with America or you side with Russia"
Most Italians side with both.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
Whenever I go to vote, there are at least 15-20 parties on the ballot and I need to choose one. Just one.
15-20 flavors of fascism in your Italy, eh.
Why on Earth did Italy ever join NATO?
It's more aligned politically & religiously
with Russia, & especially Putin.

Regarding Ameristan, you mistake a 2 party system
for being about only 2 political philosophies.
 

Estro Felino

Believer in free will
Premium Member
15-20 flavors of fascism in your Italy, eh.

Regarding Ameristan, you mistake a 2 party system
for being about only 2 political philosophies.
Kennedy would have revolutionized the political system...
but he was murdered.
His brother too. MLK too.

Those élites will kill anyone.
 
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