Whataboutism makes no sense: it's illogical

[Soandso]

In Iraq...that's what's happened. On the basis of lies. Lies, lies, lies.

'He lied': Iraqis still blame Powell for role in Iraq war

For many Iraqis, the name Colin Powell conjures up one image: the man who as U.S. secretary of State went before the U.N.

apnews.com

Some do not condemn the US. Just Russia.

Most folks in the US do condemn that invasion in this day and age. I know I do. ISIS rose up and filled the power vacuum that invasion created. The ones who think it was a good thing today are in the minority

A Look Back at How Fear and False Beliefs Bolstered U.S. Public Support for War in Iraq

Twenty years ago this month, the U.S. launched a major invasion of Iraq. President George W. Bush and his administration at first drew broad public support for the use of military force. Yet the campaign soon left Americans deeply divided, and by 2019, 62% said the Iraq War was not worth fighting.

www.pewresearch.org

I feel the comparison is a false equivalency

 

[Revoltingest]

In your country. Not in mine.

Oh, really?

https://www.statewatch.org/media/documents/news/2009/mar/EveryOne%20-%20Report%20Police%20Violence%20in%20Italy_ENG.pdf

 

[Revoltingest]

First of all, it's the MIC and the élites that make wars. Not the American commoners.

If one examines who has the power to make war,
& issues the orders, it's the politicians.
You've no cromulent evidence for the MIC conspiracy.
Voters favoring hawkish politicians has strong
explanatory power.
Russia is rather different in that Putin is a strong
central leader with singular power to make war.
And elections are not free, so voters have less
control over war making.

 

[Estro Felino]

Oh, really?

https://www.statewatch.org/media/documents/news/2009/mar/EveryOne%20-%20Report%20Police%20Violence%20in%20Italy_ENG.pdf

The situation is dramatic and tragic.
It's really disheartening. I think that Italian men are all pansies and daisies. Not to say more offensive things.

Look at this video: an African migrant goes on a rampage, he goes wild in the peaceful city of Rovereto. He starts beating people and whipping passersby with his shirt.
Did the police intervene? After a while. After he smashed cars and shop windows.
Did they arrest him? Yes, they did. But some magistrate released him after a while.

And do you know what he did after he was released? He killed a woman.

IMAGO.

www.imago-images.com

 

[Revoltingest]

The situation is dramatic and tragic.

Nonetheless, no country is immune to
police acting illegally against civilians.
And Italy, the country that embraced
Hitler & Mussolini, has a culture vulnerable
to having violent fascists becoming cops.

 

[Estro Felino]

If one examines who has the power to make war,
& issues the orders, it's the politicians.
You've no cromulent evidence for the MIC conspiracy.

The 60% of Americans at least, probably believes in this conspiracy.
And Tulsi Gabbard defined them as an elitist cabal of warmongers.
And I define them Satanic people.

Voters favoring hawkish politicians has strong
explanatory power.

They will elect Trump in nine months...so they have big power.

Russia is rather different in that Putin is a strong
central leader with singular power to make war.
And elections are not free, so voters have less
control over war making.

Russians have won the war.
There's no war any more in Ukraine.

 

[Estro Felino]

Nonetheless, no country is immune to
police acting illegally against civilians.

Surely, and that's unfortunate.

 

[Father Heathen]

In Iraq...that's what's happened. On the basis of lies. Lies, lies, lies.

Yes, the invasion of Iraq was unjustified, but it wasn't done to annex territory from Iraq, not that it makes much difference.

Some do not condemn the US. Just Russia.

Such people probably believed the pretext for the U.S. invasion of Iraq. Regardless, two wrongs don't make a right, and a despot fetish doesn't make raping and torturing children okay.

 

[Revoltingest]

The 60% of Americans at least, probably believes in this conspiracy.

Many people believe that God is real.
Belief doesn't make things true.

And Tulsi Gabbard defined them as an elitist cabal of warmongers.
And I define them Satanic people.

You think Satan worship inspires war?
I observe that God worship does.

They will elect Trump in nine months...so they have big power.
Russians have won the war.
There's no war any more in Ukraine.

You have a very agenda laden take on reality.

 

[Revoltingest]

Surely, and that's unfortunate.

Don't call me Shirley.

 

[Estro Felino]

Yes, the invasion of Iraq was unjustified, but it wasn't done to annex territory from Iraq, not that it makes much difference.

Such people probably believed the pretext for the U.S. invasion of Iraq. Regardless, two wrongs don't make a right, and a despot fetish doesn't make raping and torturing children okay.

I agree. Two wrongs don't make a right.
That is why Ukraine needs to join the EU as soon as possible.

 

[Father Heathen]

First of all, it's the MIC and the élites that make wars. Not the American commoners.
So, the USA is not bad. The commoners undergo bad things: committed by US governments, who obey the MIC.

WTF is the "MIC"?

but Russia is the lesser of two evils.

Wrong. Invading a sovereign and democratic country without provocation and then proceeding to deliberately target, torture, rape, murder, and traffick civilians - including children - makes them the greater evil. Fetishizing their actions doesn't make it morally acceptable.

 

[Father Heathen]

Russians have won the war.
There's no war any more in Ukraine.

What on earth are you babbling about?

Ukraine says ‘destroyed’ Russian ship in underwater drone attack off Crimea

Military intelligence releases nighttime video showing sinking of ship it said was the missile boat Ivanovets.

www.aljazeera.com

 

[Estro Felino]

WTF is the "MIC"?

Military-Industrial complex. An ensemble of billionaires who control the warfare industry and who benefit from wars.

Wrong. Invading a sovereign and democratic country without provocation and then proceeding to deliberately target, torture, rape, murder, and traffick civilians - including children - makes them the greater evil. Fetishizing their actions doesn't make it morally acceptable.

Obama and Hillary destroyed Libya.
Libya was an ally to us Italians.

So I would never forgive Obama and Hillary.

 

[Father Heathen]

Military-Industrial complex. An ensemble of billionaires who control the warfare industry and who benefit from wars.


Obama and Hillary destroyed Libya.
Libya was an ally to us Italians.

So I would never forgive Obama and Hillary.

Are you talking about the "Arab spring", when the Libyan people revolted against their tyrannical government?

 

[Estro Felino]

Are you talking about the "Arab spring", when the Libyan people revolted against their tyrannical government?

The Arab spring was legitimate in Egypt because Mubarak was a dictator.
But it opened the doors to fundamentalists and terrorists who poisoned the revolution and could penetrate into Libya (which at that time was the richest country in Africa) and provoke a war with the moderate that Gaddafi supported.

If Obama and Hillary had prevented Islamists from destroying Libya, none of this would have ever happened.
And I remind you that Islamists killed 10 American men in Benghazi.

2012 Benghazi attack - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Kfox]

Only as self-defense.
But again: since in the US there is the second amendment, even civilians can shoot criminals with guns, so there is zero difference.

No; if they determine you are a danger to others, the police can shoot you as well.

 

[Kfox]

What you describe is not a tu quoque fallacy, but as you say, is an example of learning from the mistakes of others

The point of using the tu quoque fallacy when someone tells you not to do drugs when they themselves do drugs is to say "How can you tell me not to do drugs when you do drugs too?" It's a logical fallacy because, even though you are pointing out the hypocrisy of it, it doesn't make the initial observation wrong and instead shifts the focus on something else entirely

This is what the article says about whataboutisms:

A variant of the tu quoque logical fallacy is popularly credited to have developed during the Cold War. Named whataboutism, it is defined as any attempt to discredit a person’s position by accusing the speaker of being hypocritical without directly disproving the argument in question. Whataboutism, also called whataboutery, derives its name from the phrase “what about,” which often is used to twist criticism back on the critic.

Whataboutisms kill conversation and turn a discussion on a particular topic into a finger pointing competition. All conversation on the issue stops and nothing useful happens after that

The previous exaple of whataboutisms was about learning from the mistakes of others, this example is of hypocrisy. My guess; whataboutisms could be about a lot of different things; some good some not so good.

 

[Soandso]

The previous exaple of whataboutisms was about learning from the mistakes of others,

No, it really wasn't. I'm assuming you didn't click the link to see what the rest of the example stated in the snippet


You’ve probably had at least a handful of adults tell you not to do drugs or to never drink underage. Imagine that you found out your parents did all of these things when they were your age. The next time they lecture you on the dangers of such acts, you retort, “But you did them, so your protests can’t be true.”

It was setting up an example for what a tu quoque fallacy was; the highlight was on the hypocrisy just like in my example

this example is of hypocrisy.

Just like the topics discussed in the article I posted earlier

My guess; whataboutisms could be about a lot of different things;

They really aren't

what·a·bout·ism
noun
BRITISH

1. the technique or practice of responding to an accusation or difficult question by making a counteraccusation or raising a different issue.

some good some not so good.

To utilize a whataboutism is to either utilize bad reasoning skills or to utilize bad faith tactics to avoid answering difficult questions. There is no "good" or "bad," just reasonable and unreasonable, and whataboutisms are unreasonable

 

[Kfox]

No, it really wasn't. I'm assuming you didn't click the link to see what the rest of the example stated in the snippet


You’ve probably had at least a handful of adults tell you not to do drugs or to never drink underage. Imagine that you found out your parents did all of these things when they were your age. The next time they lecture you on the dangers of such acts, you retort, “But you did them, so your protests can’t be true.”

It was setting up an example for what a tu quoque fallacy was; the highlight was on the hypocrisy just like in my example

I saw this as an example of an adult who regretted a bad decision he made in his youth and is warning his child of making the same mistake; which I find to be a legitimate point made.

They really aren't

what·a·bout·ism
noun
BRITISH

1. the technique or practice of responding to an accusation or difficult question by making a counteraccusation or raising a different issue.

To utilize a whataboutism is to either utilize bad reasoning skills or to utilize bad faith tactics to avoid answering difficult questions. There is no "good" or "bad," just reasonable and unreasonable, and whataboutisms are unreasonable

I remember as a kid I was told sex out of wedlock was a sin. I thought of a whataboutism being; my great- great-great grandfather was a slave thus was not allowed to get married. Does this mean my ancestors were sinners because the crooked laws of the land did not allow them to marry?
I remember being told to never lie, to always be truthful. But suppose the year is 1940 in Nazi Germany and the Gestapo knocks on your door asking if you have any Jews in the house for them to take away, and you know you have a family hiding in your attic. Sometimes lying is the right thing to do.
In these examples, whataboutisms expose the flaw of using broad sweeping statements concerning issues. I find this perfectly reasonable.