Whatever Happened to Discipline?

[JayJayDee]

In recent decades, family life in Western lands has changed dramatically. At one time, parents were in charge and children followed their lead. Now, in some households it seems to be the other way around. For example, consider the following scenarios, all of which are based on typical situations.

• While at the store with his mother, a four-year-old boy reaches out for a toy. His mother tries to dissuade him. “You have enough toys already, don’t you?” Too late, she realizes that she should not have ended on a question. “But I want it!” the boy whines. Fearing a tantrum—his usual ploy—Mom gives in.
  
  
• A five-year-old girl interrupts her father as he is talking to another adult. “I’m bored,” she announces. “I want to go home!” Her father stops mid-sentence, stoops down to his daughter, and asks in a soothing voice: “Just a few more minutes, Sweetie—OK?”
  
  
• Once again, 12-year-old James has been accused of shouting at his teacher. James’ father is upset—not at his son but at the teacher. “She’s always picking on you,” he says to James. “I’m going to report her to the school board!”
  

The preceding scenarios are imaginary, but they are hardly far-fetched. They illustrate a real problem that exists in homes where parents tolerate children’s rudeness, cave in to their demands, and “rescue” them from the consequences of their misconduct. “It is increasingly common to see parents relinquishing authority to young children,” says the book The Narcissism Epidemic. “Not that long ago, kids knew who the boss was—and it wasn’t them.”

Of course, many parents do strive to teach their children proper values, not only by setting a good example but also by giving firm but loving correction when needed. Nevertheless, parents who recognize the value of doing so are, as the book quoted earlier puts it, “swimming against the cultural tide.”

How did things get to this point? Whatever happened to discipline?

Whatever Happened to Disciplining Children?

What is the general consensus among people today about disciplining children?
Why so we have a generation of brats who seem to have all the rights in the world but little in the way of responsibility for their abominal behavior.

For those who uphold the Bible's view of discipline, should it involve corporal punishment or should discipline be administered some other way? How can we stem the tide of the "gimme" generation and take back control?

We used to get the strap when I was a kid....Dad would only have to take the stance of unbuckling his belt and we kids would jump to attention.......what is the experience of others who remember when discipline was painful? Did it really do any lasting harm? (Not talking about child abuse here....just good old fashioned discipline.)

 

[Bunyip]

I have had a different experience of the word. There are so many bright, talented and immaculately behaved young people in my community. Sure there are brats and hooligans - but there always were.
Discipline is about leadership, not brutality. You don't need physical discipline, after all we don't tend to advocate for torturing adults either - so why should it be ok for kids?
Kids can only learn respect if they are respected, and learn only to be violent when we are violent towards them.

 

[Sunstone]

I get sick of hearing that today's kids are any worse than yesterday's kids. That sort of crap has been dumped on up and coming generations since the Sumerians. There's actually a clay tablet from thousands of years ago whining about what brats the coming generation are. You hear the same complaint a few centuries later from the Egyptians. Then the Romans. The real thing to complain about isn't each new generation, but how every older generation starts whining about the next one.

 

[Revoltingest]

I've found the key to well behaved children.
I like food in all its great variety, so I eat at many different kinds of restaurants. One thing I notice is how children at Chinese restaurants (& Thai & Japanese & Korean) are better behaved. Correlation is causation, so we took our kids (even as infants) to Chinese restaurants in order to absorb the model behavior around them. It worked.

 

[Marisa]

I agree that I don't think kids are any better or worse behaved at the core than they've ever been. But I do think there is a distinct difference in parenting styles. I grew up in the '70's and my parents managed to instill respect for them and the rules in me without using corporal punishment. I've done the same with my daughter, who's now 16. Doesn't mean neither I nor my child never disobey(ed), but both I and my child knew (know) where the boundaries.

I'm not a psychologist, but I do work in a psychology practice. What I can say is that there is often a lot of parent training that goes on when a child is the patient. And mostly, it seems to be in teaching the parents how to discipline. There are instances where the parents have handed over their power to their children. But it's also true to say that there are some instances in which the parents do everything "right" but the kid(s) still suffers emotional/behavioral difficulties.

 

[lewisnotmiller]

For me the discerning difference is effort and consistency in setting boundaries and administering consequence.

I think the consequences themselves are actually less important than in making sure the rules are clear and that they dont vary based on how much energy I have on a given day.

 

[Wherenextcolumbus]

The last paragraph actually made me feel sick! Hitting your child with a belt is disgusting.

 

[Sleeppy]

The problem isn't solely with discipline, it's with understanding. Children are the flesh and blood of their parents, and they learn everything they know from their parents, and who, or whatever else they come into contact with. -- If your only mechanism of teaching is violent discipline, without adequate effort to explain and display acceptable and unacceptable behavior to them, then they will learn violent behavior, alongside unreasonableness. God made it this way for a reason; so that we are forced to look into the mirror.

 

[JayJayDee]

The last paragraph actually made me feel sick! Hitting your child with a belt is disgusting.

It does not benefit anyone to place today's attitudes on yesterday's behaviors. I am going back to the days when schools used the cane and parents used the strap or a hickory stick. It was "normal" discipline for the time. It isn't normal anymore.

We do not discipline like that mainly because it is now against the law to do so. The point was what has happened to discipline so that parents hand over their power to their child/children? When did that handover take place?

There are some very well behaved children, don't get me wrong, I see them among my own circle of friends, but where I live, so many parents are drug or alcohol addicted and a lot of kids from these "families" have the poorest role models. They are lost because there is no real discipline....there lives are a cross between neglect and abuse....nothing in between. Who can grow up and become a balanced adult in that kind of environment? The cycle is just perpetuated.

In times past, when knowledge was not so readily available, kids went off the rails it's true, but in this day and age, when there is really no excuse, there are so many systems through which our children must pass that let them down....the school system being a prime example. Schools have become a jungle of bad behavior, bad influences, drugs, alcohol abuse and cyber bullying on a level never experienced by any other generation. Teen suicide is off the scale. Add to that the total ineptitude of child services, who are supposed to protect children and this is why we see so much trouble.

We aren't just talking about kids who might be in our circle, but look at the broader view and see what child protection services are trying to deal with, but who are completely overwhelmed by the magnitude of the problem. Who has the solution?

Its a shame when you have to discipline the adults before you discipline the children.

 

[Wherenextcolumbus]

I does not benefit anyone to place today's attitudes on yesterday's behaviors. I am going back to the days when schools used the cane and parents used the strap or a hickory stick. It was "normal" discipline for the time. It isn't normal anymore.

We do not discipline like that mainly because it is now against the law to do so. The point was what has happened to discipline so that parents hand over their power to their child/children? When did that handover take place?

There are some very well behaved children, don't get me wrong, I see them among my own circle of friends, but where I live, so many parents are drug or alcohol addicted and a lot of kids from these "families" have the poorest role models. They are lost because there is no real discipline....there lives are a cross between neglect and abuse....nothing in between. Who can grow up and become a balanced adult in that kind of environment? The cycle is just perpetuated.

In times past, when knowledge was not so readily available, kids went off the rails it's true, but in this day and age, when there is really no excuse, there are so many systems through which our children must pass that let them down....the school system being a prime example. Schools have become a jungle of bad behavior, bad influences, drugs, alcohol abuse and cyber bullying on a level never experienced by any other generation. Teen suicide is off the scale. Add to that the total ineptitude of child services, who are supposed to protect children and this is why we see so much trouble.

We aren't just talking about kids who might be in our circle, but look at the broader view and see what child protection services are trying to deal with, but who are completely overwhelmed by the magnitude of the problem. Who has the solution?

Its a shame when you have to discipline the adults before you discipline the children.

You need to re read that paragraph...you're basically implying that it's an acceptable form of displine by adding that on the end of a speech about the lack of discipline these days. "Not talking about child abuse here but good old fashioned discipline."
k den

 

[JayJayDee]

You need to re read that paragraph...you're basically implying that it's an acceptable form of displine by adding that on the end of a speech about the lack of discipline these days. "Not talking about child abuse here but good old fashioned discipline."
k den

Do you know the difference between discipline and child abuse? Many who were abused as children are very sensitive about this issue, with good reason.

No one is advocating child abuse. But an open handed smack on the behind never hurt anyone.
In Bible times, children were disciplined with a rod. Did you never hear "spare the rod and spoil the child"?

When I was a child, schools were authorized to give the cane......that is corporal punishment. It was acceptable in the day, though some school principles took it too far, just like some parents did. It was normal for children to receive corporal punishment. These forms of discipline are no longer acceptable.

Here is an excerpt from a 2014 WT. You can see that it is reasonable and certainly not advocating child abuse.

"Parental discipline may be likened to gardening. A gardener prepares the soil, waters and feeds the plant, and provides protection from pests and weeds. As the plant grows, the gardener may need to prune the plant in order to help it keep growing in the right direction. The gardener recognizes that a careful combination of various techniques will help him to produce a healthy plant. Similarly, parents care for their children in many ways. But at times they need to give discipline—which, like pruning, may correct wrong inclinations early on and help their children to grow in the right direction. Pruning, however, must be done carefully, or a plant can suffer permanent harm. Likewise, parental discipline needs to be given with loving care.

The God of the Bible, Jehovah, sets a beautiful example for parents in this regard. The discipline that he gives his obedient earthly worshippers is so effective and desirable that they actually come to ‘love discipline.’ (Proverbs 12:1) They “hold on to discipline” and “do not let it go.” (Proverbs 4:13) You can help your child to respond positively by imitating closely three key elements of God’sdiscipline: It is (1) loving, (2) reasonable, and (3) consistent."

How Should You Discipline Your Children? — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY

I believe that is good advice.

 

[Wherenextcolumbus]

Do you know the difference between discipline and child abuse? Many who were abused as children are very sensitive about this issue, with good reason.

No one is advocating child abuse. But an open handed smack on the behind never hurt anyone.
In Bible times, children were disciplined with a rod. Did you never hear "spare the rod and spoil the child"?

When I was a child, schools were authorized to give the cane......that is corporal punishment. It was acceptable in the day, though some school principles took it too far, just like some parents did. It was normal for children to receive corporal punishment. These forms of discipline are no longer acceptable.

Here is an excerpt from a 2014 WT. You can see that it is reasonable and certainly not advocating child abuse.

"Parental discipline may be likened to gardening. A gardener prepares the soil, waters and feeds the plant, and provides protection from pests and weeds. As the plant grows, the gardener may need to prune the plant in order to help it keep growing in the right direction. The gardener recognizes that a careful combination of various techniques will help him to produce a healthy plant. Similarly, parents care for their children in many ways. But at times they need to give discipline—which, like pruning, may correct wrong inclinations early on and help their children to grow in the right direction. Pruning, however, must be done carefully, or a plant can suffer permanent harm. Likewise, parental discipline needs to be given with loving care.

The God of the Bible, Jehovah, sets a beautiful example for parents in this regard. The discipline that he gives his obedient earthly worshippers is so effective and desirable that they actually come to ‘love discipline.’ (Proverbs 12:1) They “hold on to discipline” and “do not let it go.” (Proverbs 4:13) You can help your child to respond positively by imitating closely three key elements of God’sdiscipline: It is (1) loving, (2) reasonable, and (3) consistent."

How Should You Discipline Your Children? — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY

I believe that is good advice.

Jay why are you quoting the bible to me exactly?

I know it was considered normal discipline back then. But you shouldn't justify it or imply that it's acceptable now or that we should go back to using the belt.
My grandmother is West African. I'm aware of cultures that promote that children should be seen and not heard and that adults should administer harsh physical discipline.
The fact that it struck so much fear in you when your Dad just touched his belt seems like abuse to me.
You can guide and discipline children without having to hit them.

 

[Ouroboros]

“Our youth now love luxury. They have bad manners, contempt for authority; they show disrespect for their elders and love chatter in place of exercise; they no longer rise when elders enter the room; they contradict their parents, chatter before company; gobble up their food and tyrannize their teachers.”
-- Socrates, 450 BC.

Nothing is new under the sun.

And

“When a child hits a child, we call it aggression.
When a child hits an adult, we call it hostility.
When an adult hits an adult, we call it assault.
When an adult hits a child, we call it discipline.”
-- Haim G. Ginott

 

[JayJayDee]

Jay why are you quoting the bible to me exactly?

Because I am talking about Christian discipline with other Christians. This is in "same faith" debates.

I know it was considered normal discipline back then. But you shouldn't justify it or imply that it's acceptable now or that we should go back to using the belt.
My grandmother is West African. I'm aware of cultures that promote that children should be seen and not heard and that adults should administer harsh physical discipline.

How are you reading that into my posts. I have clearly stated that such outdated methods as the cane or the strap cannot and should not be used today. Discipline takes other forms these days.

Where have I advocated such things or implied that they should still be used?

The fact that it struck so much fear in you when your Dad just touched his belt seems like abuse to me.
You can guide and discipline children without having to hit them.

The fear when my father removed his belt was just that. I don't remember him ever using it. The threat was enough.

 

[Wherenextcolumbus]

Oops didn't realise this is in same faith debates. Sorry. Take care

 

[nothead]

“Our youth now love luxury. They have bad manners, contempt for authority; they show disrespect for their elders and love chatter in place of exercise; they no longer rise when elders enter the room; they contradict their parents, chatter before company; gobble up their food and tyrannize their teachers.”
-- Socrates, 450 BC.

Nothing is new under the sun.

And

“When a child hits a child, we call it aggression.
When a child hits an adult, we call it hostility.
When an adult hits an adult, we call it assault.
When an adult hits a child, we call it discipline.”
-- Haim G. Ginott

The biblical model is, em child to parents, wife to husband, husband to Christ, Christ to God.

The consideration of equality is not there, in authority. The consideration presupposed by society is always equality. The Christian model is that The Golden Rule is always applied. Do unto others, as they would do unto you. But if my first sentence is true then upholding the order of authority is actually love, not equality as the priority.

 

[sojourner]

We do not discipline like that mainly because it is now against the law to do so.

We do not discipline like that anymore because it's cruel and unnecessary abuse.

an open handed smack on the behind never hurt anyone.

There's no evidence that it helps, either -- except, in some cases, in the short term.

Discipline, such as what you brought out in the OP, isn't limited to children. Adults are just as bad. It really has far more to do with grasping and practicing a fair amount of social responsibility. We are responsible to each other. We are becoming more autocratic -- that is, we care more only for "my rights" than "my responsibility to care for others." IOW, we are in a crisis of individualism.

 

[lovemuffin]

When I saw the thread title I was hoping it was going to be more about discipline for the adults

 

[Tumah]

"In the footsteps of the Messiah (ie. right before he comes), insolence will increase, and honor will be perverted, the grapevine will give its fruit and the wine will be expensive, the kingdom will turn to apostasy, and there will be no reproach, [places of] congregation will be for harlotry... truth will be lacking, young lads will humiliate the elderly, the elderly will stand (ie. in respect) before the young, a son (ie. sons) will be disgusted by his father, a daughter (ie. daughters) will stand up to her mother, a daughter-in-law to her mother-in-law,the enemies of a person will be the people of his household, the face of the generation will be the face of a dog, the son will not be embarrassed in front of his father..."
-Talmud

That's my two cents.