What's The Difference Between a Vision and a Hallucination?

[beenherebeforeagain]

at least not in a specific vision inducing ritual....

What I find interesting is that, even among users of hallucinogens, or who go through specific ritual efforts to experience visions, how very few actually do experience anything that really approaches a mystical experience--although, that's not really the topic of this thread, so maybe we'll talk about this another time.

 

[psychoslice]

Delusion.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

I've often pondered this. Psilocybin mushrooms especially have made me wonder about this. They open up neural networks and connections in the brain that do not normally exist, and enhance brain activity. This can easily be dismissed as a hallucination. But, really, everything we perceive is merely based upon how our brains tell us to perceive something. And you can't dismiss everything from 'shrooms as a hallucination, because you do see things that are actually their, but because your senses are heightened things you normally wouldn't see stand out like a rainbow.
To bring in science, we aren't even really that good at interpreting reality, as 10 different people will give 10 different accounts to the same exact event.
Maybe once we reach that "ubermensch" point where our descendants are to us as we are to apes we will have a clear answer, but, for now, if it wasn't for math I couldn't even really objectively tell you what reality is.

 

[Sapiens]

That is still what I was saying. The definition of 'vision' allows for the experience of 'real' phenomena.

apparition: a ghost or spirit of a dead person

Until you can demonstrate the existence of ghosts of spirits we will have to accept them as synonymous with minor semantic shadings of meaning.

I've often pondered this. Psilocybin mushrooms especially have made me wonder about this. They open up neural networks and connections in the brain that do not normally exist, and enhance brain activity. This can easily be dismissed as a hallucination. But, really, everything we perceive is merely based upon how our brains tell us to perceive something. And you can't dismiss everything from 'shrooms as a hallucination, because you do see things that are actually their, but because your senses are heightened things you normally wouldn't see stand out like a rainbow.
To bring in science, we aren't even really that good at interpreting reality, as 10 different people will give 10 different accounts to the same exact event.
Maybe once we reach that "ubermensch" point where our descendants are to us as we are to apes we will have a clear answer, but, for now, if it wasn't for math I couldn't even really objectively tell you what reality is.

"Heightened" is an interesting spin to put on confusing and confusticating your neural chemistry in ways that you were not evolved to properly interpret the result of.

 

[Draka]

It depends what time period your are talking about and also where the person lives. A vision is independent of what the seer wants or knows or believes. It is about how things should be. A hallucination is something you want to see so badly that you see it, however a vision can sometimes overlap with that. Example: If you have a vision of freedom, then the two may overlap. What matters are the visions that are recorded, the visions that people feel have been about something, the visions that have moved us closer to each other.

What you described as an hallucination is what is known as a mirage. Most hallucinations are actually not something wanted at all. Usually quite the opposite. They are terrifying. Especially ones brought about by medication. At least that was my experience. Put on a medication for migraines and 3 days into it of feeling horrible I had a full on full apparition hallucination. It scared the crap out of me. Thing is, I knew I was hallucinating but my mind was still freaking out, wishing it away. It was THAT disturbing. Your mind goes off on its own basically and you have no control. So, no, not what you want to see.

 

[Thief]

What's the difference?

hallucinations (bad lighting)....are perceptions not well seen

people with vision .....'see' better.

 

[Brickjectivity]

What you described as an hallucination is what is known as a mirage. Most hallucinations are actually not something wanted at all. Usually quite the opposite. They are terrifying. Especially ones brought about by medication. At least that was my experience. Put on a medication for migraines and 3 days into it of feeling horrible I had a full on full apparition hallucination. It scared the crap out of me. Thing is, I knew I was hallucinating but my mind was still freaking out, wishing it away. It was THAT disturbing. Your mind goes off on its own basically and you have no control. So, no, not what you want to see.

Sounds pretty awful. Yeah I guess a mirage is more like what I mean although I am not talking about wandering through deserts.

 

[George-ananda]

Until you can demonstrate the existence of ghosts of spirits

Just watch 'Paranormal Lockdown' at 11PM tonight!

 

[icehorse]

I've often pondered this. Psilocybin mushrooms especially have made me wonder about this. They open up neural networks and connections in the brain that do not normally exist, and enhance brain activity. This can easily be dismissed as a hallucination. But, really, everything we perceive is merely based upon how our brains tell us to perceive something. And you can't dismiss everything from 'shrooms as a hallucination, because you do see things that are actually their, but because your senses are heightened things you normally wouldn't see stand out like a rainbow.
To bring in science, we aren't even really that good at interpreting reality, as 10 different people will give 10 different accounts to the same exact event.
Maybe once we reach that "ubermensch" point where our descendants are to us as we are to apes we will have a clear answer, but, for now, if it wasn't for math I couldn't even really objectively tell you what reality is.

Psilocybin, Ayahuasca, Mescaline, Bufotenin, LSD and other psychedelics are very different from each other chemically (although it's interesting that Ayahuasca (a vine), and Bufotenin (from a desert toad), have the closest chemical structure (both are forms of DMT). But even with these very different chemical makeups they can produce very similar hallucinations.

I tend to think that hallucinations are triggered by a change in brain chemistry, all of mine have been. I'm less familiar with visions. I understand that visions often have religious connotations, but maybe they are also triggered via brain chemistry? (That would be my guess.)

So, all that said, my guess is that they're the same, it's mostly about the context the experiencer brings to the rodeo.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

"Heightened" is an interesting spin to put on confusing and confusticating your neural chemistry in ways that you were not evolved to properly interpret the result of.

It's not a spin, but reality. The world comes alive in new ways. And what makes it interesting, is it isn't seeing things that aren't there, but seeing what is more clearly.

I tend to think that hallucinations are triggered by a change in brain chemistry, all of mine have been. I'm less familiar with visions. I understand that visions often have religious connotations, but maybe they are also triggered via brain chemistry? (That would be my guess.)

It's like trying to explain sex to a virgin. You see things, but you see things as they are. They aren't distorted, but more clear, more apparent, and brought into better focus. A good example, one that is easily understood, is how dirt and oil from finger prints are far more easily noticed on a white wall or ceiling. Or the few colors of a computer monitor melding together to form the myriad of colors we can see displayed.

I tend to think that hallucinations are triggered by a change in brain chemistry, all of mine have been. I'm less familiar with visions. I understand that visions often have religious connotations, but maybe they are also triggered via brain chemistry? (That would be my guess.)

Sexual arousal, pain, pleasure, agony, these are all triggered by a change in the chemicals in the brain and what neurotransmitters are sending and what the brain interprets them as. If religious visions are real, of course they would involve various chemicals in the brain, because that is how we perceive everything - the totality of our existence is nothing more than a flood of neuro-chemicals. Even the soothing touch of a lover, the sweetness of a treat, the agony of despair, these all involve chemicals. The question thus becomes what does any of it mean? I can read this and respond because of brain activity and chemicals. I can spend a moment thinking about it because of the same reasons. Brain activity is our entire life. What really is this enhanced activity from things such as psilocybin mushrooms?

 

[Papoon]

It is rather interesting the number of cultures who have their "best" visions right after taking a hallucinogen...

True.
Also there is an aspect to this not widely realised which I have learned directly, and that is that some skill can be developed in these inner realms. And it is not a pointless skill, nor need it relate to 'religious' ideas.

Psychiatrists and their more effectively treated clients can attest to the fact that some medications will cause improvements in some aspects of functioning, and these improvements remain after cessation of medication. I can give examples of what I mean if you want, but the gist of it is - the brain physically changes.

Tibetan Buddhist practices involve detailed visualization, and I can attest to the fact that these skills do not require drugs.

As for the uses of these skills, there are various which I can report from experience. One is in my primary artistic activity. Generally people are at least aware that there is some faculty of visualisation in any normal brain. Dreaming makes that obvious. Plenty of visual artists clearly imagine what they subsequently produce. I can now 'audialise' very clearly, which as a musician I appreciate muchly. And occasionally I enjoy simply listening to spontaneous music.

Then there are the social applications. In central America there have been (are still I trust) cultures where 'family therapy' involved a shaman using psilocybe mushrooms in the company of the family, and subsequent 'visions' effectively symbolically communicate the situation and it's resolution.

I guess what I am saying is that it is adding or enhancing an innate faculty to the collection of skills a human can develop.

How and why this is so controversial, politically and religiously is a whole other topic ...

 

[Papoon]

Put on a medication for migraines and 3 days into it of feeling horrible I had a full on full apparition hallucination. It scared the crap out of me.

Was that Deseril ? It is methysergide, very similar to LSD. If that's what you had I know the feeling. Like being seasick and tripping badly at the same time. Not recommended as a recreational, lol. Also a major vasoconstrictor - a large dose could cost a limb.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Was that Deseryl ? It is methysergide, very similar to LSD.

They aren't the same. Deseryl, or Trazodone, is a tetracyclic antidepressant. It isn't even methysergide, or methyl-D-lysergic acid butanolamide, and it certainly is not lysergic acid diethylamide-25.
The closest thing to LSD is ergine, d-lysergic acid amide, or LSA, a fungus extract from hawaiian baby rosewood or morning glory seeds (LSD is an ergot fungus extract from rye).
Methysergide is barely in use any longer due to severe side effects (SSRIs are the first "go to" anymore for treatment of depression), and trazodone acts, more-or-less, like any other tetracyclic antidepressant in terms of effects and side-effects.
These drugs are not the same, they do not have the same effects, and no drug should ever be taken unless you are well educated about it (even those prescribed by a doctor) and are aware of any and all possible effects and side-effects.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Reminds me of the time I was prescribed amitriptyline, by a doctor, even though it is dated, not commonly used, and the dosage prescribed caused me to have a mild overdose reaction.

 

[Papoon]

They aren't the same. Deseryl, or Trazodone,deseril-tablets
ic antidepressant. It isn't even methysergide, or methyl-D-lysergic acid butanolamide, and it certainly is not lysergic acid diethylamide-25.
The closest thing to LSD is ergine, d-lysergic acid amide, or LSA, a fungus extract from hawaiian baby rosewood or morning glory seeds (LSD is an ergot fungus extract from rye).
Methysergide is barely in use any longer due to severe side effects (SSRIs are the first "go to" anymore for treatment of depression), and trazodone acts, more-or-less, like any other tetracyclic antidepressant in terms of effects and side-effects.
These drugs are not the same, they do not have the same effects, and no drug should ever be taken unless you are well educated about it (even those prescribed by a doctor) and are aware of any and all possible effects and side-effects.

I spelled it wrong.

I meant Deseril.

http://www.nps.org.au/medicines/hea...graine-medicines/methysergide/deseril-tablets

I have edited the post to show the correct medicine. Sorry bout that.

Well spotted ShadowWolf . Respect.

 

[Draka]

Was that Deseril ? It is methysergide, very similar to LSD. If that's what you had I know the feeling. Like being seasick and tripping badly at the same time. Not recommended as a recreational, lol. Also a major vasoconstrictor - a large dose could cost a limb.

It was Nortriptyline. An anti-depressant used in low doses to help manage frequent severe migraines. I was on an anti-seizure drug for management for a few years called Topiramate that worked very well for migraine management but caused kidney issues (stones nearly filled both kidneys) so they took me off of it and put me on the Nortriptyline. I took it for a grand total of 3 days. From the first day I took it I may as well have had the Plague for how crappy I felt and on the third day I was hallucinating. Never took another pill. That's some nasty stuff.

 

[Papoon]

It was Nortriptyline. An anti-depressant used in low doses to help manage frequent severe migraines. I was on an anti-seizure drug for management for a few years called Topiramate that worked very well for migraine management but caused kidney issues (stones nearly filled both kidneys) so they took me off of it and put me on the Nortriptyline. I took it for a grand total of 3 days. From the first day I took it I may as well have had the Plague for how crappy I felt and on the third day I was hallucinating. Never took another pill. That's some nasty stuff.

Yes, there is a lot of toxic waste sold as medicine. And so often because the Big Pharma developers are economically obliged to produce patentable products. Meaning lots of effective herbal medicine is not marketed among other things.

But we digress...

 

[Papoon]

@ShadowWolf

Just had a vision. It looked like this...

 

[Riverwolf]

I don't mean a religious vision. I was honestly just asking what is the difference between the two.

Ah... I'm afraid I'm not aware of any other context for visions besides religious or spiritual, hence my confusion.

It is rather interesting the number of cultures who have their "best" visions right after taking a hallucinogen...

I'll have you know that I've never once taken an hallucinagenic drug!

...granted, all my visions seem to suspiciously correspond to periods of fatigue or sleepiness, but... BAH! There can't POSSIBLY be a correlation!

 

[Draka]

Yes, there is a lot of toxic waste sold as medicine. And so often because the Big Pharma developers are economically obliged to produce patentable products. Meaning lots of effective herbal medicine is not marketed among other things.

But we digress...

Before we completely digress, one tidbit you may find interesting. Since I stopped that drug my Neurologist never prescribed another one and I did my own research and have been taking a certain herbal supplement for management and it has been working wonders with no side effects at all. Ginkgo Biloba. A simple herbal supplement for a few dollars for a three month supply has been doing the job for many months now. Of course, doctors won't tell you that.