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What's the difference between Orthodox Bahais and regular Bahais?

Cosmos

Cosmos

Member
BruceDLimber said:
Bishka, hi!

The difference is Baha'is accept and endeavor to follow the Baha'i Covenant which was promulgated by Baha'u'llah and 'Abdu'l-Baha (and supported by Shoghi Effendi). Among other things, it gives specific criteria for anyone eligible to hold the position of Guardian of the Faith, criteria which rule out anyone not a genetic descendant of Baha'u'llah.
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Actually, I'd like to disprove that case right here and now.:sorry1:

Please read and meditate upon Abdu'l-Baha's words from His Will and Testament regarding the Guardianship:
O ye beloved of the Lord! It is incumbent upon the Guardian of the Cause of God to appoint in his own life-time him that shall become his successor, that differences may not arise after his passing. He that is appointed must manifest in himself detachment from all worldly things, must be the essence of purity, must show in himself the fear of God, knowledge, wisdom and learning. Thus, should the first-born of the Guardian of the Cause of God not manifest in himself the truth of the words:—“The child is the secret essence of its sire,” that is, should he not inherit of the spiritual within him (the Guardian of the Cause of God) and his glorious lineage not be matched with a goodly character, then must he, (the Guardian of the Cause of God) choose another branch to succeed him.--Last Will and Testament of Abdu'l-Baha, pg. 12
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:eek:

Now, it is not I who has invented my own interpretation. It is documented by the Master! This very clause indicates that if a Guardian cannot choose another successor from his own loins ("and his glorious lineage not be matched with a goodly character")--"then must he, (the Guardian of the Cause of God) choose another branch to succeed him."

Now, I'd like to state that anyone who dares say another is not a Baha'i because they do not believe as you do and they actually believe in standing up for the Covenant of Baha'u'llah... that is not the Baha'i spirit:(, and I encourage these individuals to go pray about their own faults. Also, Bruce, I'd like to see you prove from the Holy Scriptures where exactly Abdu'l-Baha or Shoghi Effendi envisioned a Universal House of Justice without a Guardian--because I can go for hours and give the documented evidences to support my case. If these are the tactics that the Baha'i community at large engage towards others, then I fear for the "entry by troops" Haifa has designed to directly (no coincidence) counter underground Baha'i activities all over the country.

Please read Genesis 49:10. Now, though I don't expect many people to understand at all what it is referring to, because not everyone is Bible-literate these days, but this is a prophecy talking about the "scepter" or rod (symbol for the penis) that departs from Judah to Shiloh--a Gentile. An adoption of lineage, which is also directly implied in the Last Will and Testament of Abdu'l-Baha!

BruceDLimber said:
Anyone who doesn't accept and follow it isn't a Baha'i no matter what he calls himself!
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Oh, really? Tell that to my local community! :foot:
 
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Sen McGlinn

Sen McGlinn

Member
In his Will and Testament, Abdu’l-Baha established the institution of the Guardianship, appointed his grandson Shoghi Effendi as the first Guardian, and provided for him to appoint a successor, as follows:

It is incumbent upon the Guardian of the Cause of God to appoint in his own life-time him that shall become his successor, … The Hands of the Cause of God must elect from their own number nine … and these, whether unanimously or by a majority vote, must give their assent to the choice of the one whom the Guardian of the Cause of God hath chosen as his successor. This assent must be given in such wise as the assenting and dissenting voices may not be distinguished (i.e., secret ballot). (Abdu’l-Baha, The Will and Testament, 12)


Since Abdu’l-Baha refers to the possibility of a majority decision, he clearly anticipates a real possibility of some dissenting votes. Since his words explicitly require a secret ballot, not consultation, and dissenting votes are possible, the Hands themselves would not know until after the voting whether the result was to accept or reject the Guardian’s choice. So this is not an empty formality: ultimately it is the approval of a majority of the nine Hands, given to the Guardian's choice, that makes a new Guardian.


There is really no need to enter the arguments about an implied appointment, whether an American could be a “lineal descendant” of Baha’u’llah, and so forth, because the Will and Testament lays down a very concrete procedure. If
- the Guardian nominates someone, and
- the Hands of the Cause “elect from their own number nine,” and
- the majority of the 9 chosen Hands agree to the choice in a secret ballot, then
= we have a new Guardian.

If there is no assent from the Hands, there is no new Guardian: it is simple, and clear in the Will and Testament, leaving no room open for doubt, and this one fact refutes all the arguments of all the claimants.

I've written this up on a blog at
ht tp:/ /tinyurl.com/NocounterfeitGuardians (join up the url)
which also has links to substantiate the points, and to background information for those who don't know who the various people are.
 
BruceDLimber

BruceDLimber

Well-Known Member
What the dissidents aren't mentioning is that in the very quote posted where it speaks of nominating "another branch" to succeed him [the Guardian], "branch" (the original is "aghsán") is the formal term used to mean DESCENDANT OF BAHA'U'LLAH.

So regardless of whether the nominee is the first-born son or not, the text still makes it clear that ONLY DESCENDANTS OF BAHA'U'LLAH are eligible!

And since there were no descendants of Baha'u'llah at the time of Shoghi Effendi's death who were still Baha'i, the list of candidates was necessarily reduced to zero.

This nonsense about the Hands picking someone from among themeselves is thus a smokescreen intended to obscure this fact--as well as an ex post facto attempt to justify ignoring this principle and claiming anyone else could have been legitimate.

Bruce
 
Cosmos

Cosmos

Member
It is absolutely ludicrous to make the supposition that the Hands of the Cause of God exercise any authority above the Guardian of the Cause of God! :thud:

What the Last Will and Testament stated was that it was "INCUMBENT" upon the then current Guardian [Shoghi Effendi] to choose a successor--meaning that if this is not accomplished then Shoghi Effendi had broken the Covenant and the Baha'i Faith had died away 53 years ago! It also explicitly states that if a successor from the lineage of the Guardian [Shoghi Effendi] could not be established, then another must be chosen. How is this not a supposition for adoption? Again, both of you, my friends, fail to establish in the Sacred Writings, either from Abdu'l-Baha or Shoghi Effendi, where the Institution of the Guardianship was to be abolished. Nor has it been satisfactorily answered as to why Shoghi Effendi in fact established the first International Baha'i Council on January 9, 1951, with Charles Mason Remey as the serving President, and with a woman, Amelia Collins, in the vice-presidency.

Mason Remey, dear friends, acknowledged along with the rest of the 26 Hands that there was no official biologically lineal inheritance or successorship, but this does not detract from the fact that Shoghi Effendi established the "embryonic Universal House of Justice" (i.e. IBC) during his own lifetime. Moreover, what should be asked by Baha'is is if His Holiness Baha'u'llah Himself envisioned and instructed that an Aghsan would be the distinguished member ("member for life") of the Universal House of Justice, including His Son Abdu'l-Baha's express delineation on the matter, who gave the Hands or Ms. Sutherland Maxwell authority to annul Shoghi Effendi's IBC that was in accordance of preserving the "twin pillars" (executive and legislative branches both)? Again, I can go for hours showing forth documented evidences on the issue. :candle:

An extra fact is that the appointed nine of the Hands was as a focal for secretariat correspondence of Shoghi Effendi's own ministry, while he himself, again, instated nine members to serve on his International Baha'i Council of 1951, there originally being eight and the ninth member, a Sylvia Ioas, who is a most distinguished servant of Baha'u'llah at the Shrines in Haifa, stationed in 1955. Eleven members served total until 1961 (when the serving vice-president finally passed on). Please refer to Genesis 49:10 and give me feedback as to fellow Baha'i interpretation of this verse.
 
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GabrielWithoutWings

GabrielWithoutWings

Well-Known Member
Boethiah said:
Aren't there living decedents of Baha'u'llah living in Israel today?
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What an excellent point.

Aren't there living decendents of Baha'u'llah? Does CB status extend through the bloodline? Does this revoke not only religious affiliation but also familial ties, in terms of succession?
 
arthra

arthra

Baha'i
Here's my response..

There are believed to be quite a few descendants of Baha'u'llah and some where I've seen a family tree .. Anyway, after the passing of Baha'u''llah in 1892 a younger half brother of Abdul-Baha named Muhammad Ali ..disputed the Will and claimed he should be the leader of the Faith and many of his relatives went over to him and some continued to live in the mansion of Bahji for some years until well after the passing of Abdul-Baha in 1921.. eventually they lost their claims and were ousted .. so many of the relatives refusing to recognize Abdul-Baha left the Faith and violated the Covenant or Will of Baha'u'llah and of course later the Will of Abdul-Baha.. some of these became Muslims and live around Lebanon..and a few might have staid in the Haifa area somewhere..

There are also many descendants of the family of the Bab known as Afnan and many of them are Baha'is and have served the Faith.

So it's a long story .. and ratehr sad but some of the reasons go back to loyalties and alliances in these families..

Now the question arises if a descendant of Baha'u'llah applied to the House of Justice and was accepted as a Baha'i they would I'm sure be treated with respect but they would have no more status than any other Baha'i that is, they could no longer as a descendant of Baha'u'llah claim to have any special prerogatives or leadership in the Faith.

You can read articles:

Bahá'u'lláh's family - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 
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Cosmos

Cosmos

Member
arthra said:
Now the question arises if a descendant of Baha'u'llah applied to the House of Justice and was accepted as a Baha'i they would I'm sure be treated with respect but they would have no more status than any other Baha'i that is, they could no longer as a descendant of Baha'u'llah claim to have any special prerogatives or leadership in the Faith.
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This would indeed not be plausible, Art, as instructed in the Will and Testament of our beloved Master, the GUARDIAN has the only authority to elect the next successor. As the current majority Baha'i leadership in Haifa has for 47 years now declared 'Bida' on the whole matter, they cannot suffice to ever institute the Guardianship under any conditions as this would contradict their whole basis for authority. Please look into the religious meaning of this word and all it implies as I wonder who gives anyone the authority to "innovate" the Covenant of the Faith! Another problematic element is the issue I've repeated over and over... and over... concerning the FACT that Shoghi Effendi DID establish a successor after him in the first International Baha'i Council of 1951.These are not "CB" related facts--they are documented and acknowledged even by the current majority leadership.

Though not explicitly stating what the prerogatives of the executive branch would be during his lifetime, Shoghi Effendi, consider what he said concerning then President (Mason Remey):

"I have adopted you as my son. You have to appreciate this favor very much indeed. One should see that you are living according to the requirements of this sonship. You should be aware of your responsibilities. My prayers will help you. I always pray for you." [Source: Abdu'l-Baha to Remey, 1921: Final Visit in Tiberias, Folio 2, "A Pilgrimage to the Holy Land: Reminisces of the Master", 1921, pgs. 127-129, John Hopkins University, Special collections]
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Cosmos

Cosmos

Member
The Prophet Moses gave a prophecy concerning the Blessing, Curse, and Re-gathering of the Nation of Israel. Please read Deuteronomy Chapter 28 for the blessing and curse, and see Deuteronomy 30:3-6 for the re-gathering. Therein lies many gems.
 
BruceDLimber

BruceDLimber

Well-Known Member
GabrielWithoutWings said:
Why do you automatically jump to the conclusion that living descendants of Baha'u'llah are not Baha'is?
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Because over the nearly 39 years I've been a Baha'i (including numerous contacts and travels in various parts of the world)--plus ongoing study of the Faith and details about it--, I would have heard of them. It's been made pretty clear that there are no present-day Baha'i descendants, in addition to the fact that whole branches of the family reverted to Islam.

Peace, :)

Bruce
 
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