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What's the justification for believing in the soul?

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
When a person is found dead, you have several possibilities that need to be investigated, is it suicide (did it itself), was it accident (did it happen by pure chance), or was it murder (someone intelligently committed the dastardly deed).

Saying that it has no value to identify the source, though that doesn't tell us the method or the why of it, clearly has real value. It might point us toward the ways things really were done instead of investigating random ways it might have happened with simple chemical reactions, etc. It might guide us to look at the ways any designer might have gone about getting the job done within the rules that apply and the material available.

Thus, with your quoted statement, I disagree totally.:)


Really? OK, I'll bite. What *specific* testable predictions can you make about *any* major scientific question by assuming a creator deity? What insight does it give to questions about the origin of life, for example? How *would* a designer have gone about it? Guess what? Nobody knows that either! In regard to the cosmological constant, how *would* a designer have fine tuned it? Again, nobody knows. How would the assumption of a designer affect the investigations into *any* scientific question?

In contrast, knowing whether a death was due to murder or suicide immediately leads to the next question: who or why? And it even gives ways to address such questions. If it was a different person, they would have left a trail, had a motive, etc. If it was suicide, we can ask about their mental state, and find out something.
 

Grandliseur

Well-Known Member
What insight does it give to questions about the origin of life, for example? How *would* a designer have gone about it? Guess what? Nobody knows that either!
A subject that is a big big bone of contention for sure.
At the moment, research may be done on how Abiogenesis might have occurred. The whole of their attention is focused on how this might have happened randomly. They might be trying out all kinds of chemical soups with energies applied, lightning, heat, and chemical reactions. So far, even intelligent design has failed to create a working cell from scratch.

If the focus instead was on how an intelligent designer might have gone about creating the cell wall, the first basic cell, with its needed cellular machinery, it would be an entirely different investigation. It might perhaps even succeed in unlocking how this first life on earth was implemented.

Knowing that something was made and seeing how it operates internally and externally - is the first step toward reverse engineering in that goal.

Already, science has a special name for how they continually reverse engineer nature (Biomimetics), all given in the honor of evolution. No honor is given the designer. How do you think he feels (should you try to put yourself in such a being's shoes - though he doesn't have any, I am sure. ;)) about this!

I find it highly distasteful that in everything, we give honor to people who have contributed to the sciences, be it mathematics, physics, astrophysics, engineering, and so much more. However, when we copy nature's designs, radar, sonar, zippers, sticky patches with small hooks, and all kinds of things I may not have any idea about, no honor is given at all, though, the solutions of nature are beyond astounding and awe inspiring.

While you clearly have qualifications in the sciences that are way beyond mine, I am obviously not a scientist. I am just a Christian who knows my Bible and love science. This might not be sufficient to give you what you need. Perhaps discussing some things with professors who are Christian might be best. :)
 
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Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
A subject that is a big big bone of contention for sure.
At the moment, research may be done on how Abiogenesis might have occurred. The whole of their attention is focused on how this might have happened randomly. They might be trying out all kinds of chemical soups with energies applied, lightning, heat, and chemical reactions. So far, even intelligent design has failed to create a working cell from scratch.

If the focus instead was on how an intelligent designer might have gone about creating the cell wall, the first basic cell, with its needed cellular machinery, it would be an entirely different investigation. It might perhaps even succeed in unlocking how this first life on earth was implemented.

And there are people who are actively looking at the mechanisms of life and trying to figure out how to design our own organisms. Even with the blueprints, so to speak, the addition of an intelligent designer doesn't help.

Knowing that something was made and seeing how it operates internally and externally - is the first step toward reverse engineering in that goal.

An there are probably more people working on doing exactly that than pure abiogenesis. They want to figure out how we could design our own organisms to, say, make medicines. Some are taking exactly that reverse-engineering tact: looking at the minimal system that can still function as life, etc. And yet, that still hasn't answered how life began.

Already, science has a special name for how they continually reverse engineer nature (Biomimetics), all given in the honor of evolution. No honor is given the designer. How do you think he feels (should you try to put yourself in such a being's shoes - though he doesn't have any, I am sure. ;)) about this!

I wouldn't be able to say one way or the other. Even if there is a designer (again, a position that is quite far from proven), the only knowledge we have of personality is what we discover from our studies.

I find it highly distasteful that in everything, we give honor to people who have contributed to the sciences, be it mathematics, physics, astrophysics, engineering, and so much more. However, when we copy nature's designs, radar, sonar, zippers, sticky patches with small hooks, and all kinds of things I may not have any idea about, no honor is given at all, though, the solutions of nature are beyond astounding and awe inspiring.

Yes, isn't it amazing what evolution can do? Let's face it. Even if there is an intelligent designer, that doens't change the fact that evolution was the chosen mechanism. Nor does it change the central question in abiogenesis: how did the original chemicals come together to give life? Even the assumption of a designer doens't answer that question.

While you clearly have qualifications in the sciences that are way beyond mine, I am obviously not a scientist. I am just a Christian who knows my Bible and love science. This might not be sufficient to give you what you need. Perhaps discussing some things with professors who are Christian might be best. :)

I have done so. What you seem to not realize is that there are a good number of theists in the sciences. Fewer than in the general population, of course, but still the viewpoint is there and common. But theism hasn't been found to help with the scientific questions at all. The man who was going to be my PhD advisor in physics was a Christian. But he also knew that cosmology questions can't be answered by theology.
 

Grandliseur

Well-Known Member
Even if there is an intelligent designer, that doens't change the fact that evolution was the chosen mechanism.
Fairly obvious that my views differ here. No matter, everyone has to make up their own mind.
The man who was going to be my PhD advisor in physics was a Christian. But he also knew that cosmology questions can't be answered by theology.
It is fairly obvious that the book of 'creation' is studied on its own merits. Still, I marvel at the things that are revealed that have just recently (historically speaking) been discovered by scientists. (one thing I cannot find though, irritating when I know it is there) rogue star, planet, the inflation of the universe and its inglorious end, and other things that I take as from the divine and not from people who lived in a time when such things could not be known.

I am not even sure, it is desired by you to have this quoted?!
 

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
Fairly obvious that my views differ here. No matter, everyone has to make up their own mind.

It is fairly obvious that the book of 'creation' is studied on its own merits. Still, I marvel at the things that are revealed that have just recently (historically speaking) been discovered by scientists. (one thing I cannot find though, irritating when I know it is there) rogue star, planet, the inflation of the universe and its inglorious end, and other things that I take as from the divine and not from people who lived in a time when such things could not be known.

I am not even sure, it is desired by you to have this quoted?!

I've seen a number of *claims* for such things. But, when looked at through the eyes of those who wrote it, it is clear that this is forcing modern ideas into old writings. But, if you want to discuss, we certainly can.
 

Grandliseur

Well-Known Member
I've seen a number of *claims* for such things. But, when looked at through the eyes of those who wrote it, it is clear that this is forcing modern ideas into old writings. But, if you want to discuss, we certainly can.
I am tired today, and it is certain you will not see things in the light of a believer. So, let's call it quits. If you ever should want to see the information, ask me. Tonight is a haze. Can't even read a book.
 

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
I am tired today, and it is certain you will not see things in the light of a believer. So, let's call it quits. If you ever should want to see the information, ask me. Tonight is a haze. Can't even read a book.

I find it much better to look at things through the eyes of a skeptic. That makes it much less likely you will read your own biases into things.

For example, there is a verse of Job where God describes the skies expanding like a tent. Some people point to that as a description of the Big Bang, which is, frankly, ridiculous. Remeber the world view of those at the time this was written: the Earth was seen as flat, supported on pillars with water all around. The sky was seen as a dome over the Earth (the firmament of Genesis) where the stars were placed. In Job, this dome is being compared to a tent that was flung out by God over the Earth.

Try reading the Bible with the eyes of those who wrote it. The meanings become much clearer then. It isn't a modern book (or even a modern collection of books, which would be more accurate). It is a book from the ancient world written with the views and biases of its time.
 

serp777

Well-Known Member
For me, the 'soul' is the observer or seer that is aware. It is who 'I' am. It is consciousness. It is the only thing that I can describe as 'not me.' I can observe everything, with one notable exception. My consciousness. My Self.

Imagine a flashlight in a dark room. The flashlight can emit light to allow observation of anything in the room. But it cannot turn back on itself to observe itself. It cannot emit light on filament of the bulb. The 'soul' you describe in your post would be the filament in this analogy.

But what reason do we have to believe that your analogy is accurate? Also why would we label consciousness as a soul? Consciousness seems like a perfectly good word already, so why try to attach a bunch of supernatural baggage by including the soul?
 

serp777

Well-Known Member
You asked for the justification. From my discussion with others, it comes down to what they personally feel. I'm not saying they are right or wrong, just how folks usually go about justifying it.

My argument is that the isolation of one's conscious awareness from the subconscious mind is the source of this feeling.

Okay but how is that a justification? Usually a justification is based on evidence and or on a logically necessary argument. It doesn't seem like personal feelings should count as a justification for rational belief.
 

serp777

Well-Known Member
That you pick and choose what you believe according to science doesn't surprise me a whole lot. I merely showed you that your claim about time beginning at the Big Bang is your claim and surely not that of many scientists. That you brush off this so as to serve your needs, is fine. Just don't think that others will accept your personal assertions.

There is no reason to continue this.

I can give you evidence if you'd like: The Beginning of TIme

Stephen hawking seems to agree, and I can surely provide you many other sources. its not just my claim. This is the current state of modern physics and cosmology. Go and check it out, but its not just an assertion.
 

serp777

Well-Known Member
As far as I can tell, science is showing us that everythting is really one at the micro scale. Now any basic knowledge of physics tells us this. I state the implications that there would be sort of like "one spirit". A soul would be spirit that's confused and thinks it's an individual.

But im still wondering what you mean by spirit and soul. Do those concepts have supernatural implications in your mind?
 

serp777

Well-Known Member
The argument from desire fits well here :

Peter Kreeft, professor of philosophy at Boston College, has written that C.S. Lewis’s “argument from desire” is, apart from Anselm’s “ontological argument,” “the single most intriguing argument in the history of human thought” (p 249). This is an argument for the existence of God (and heaven). St. Augustine and Goethe also used this argument.

So what is this argument that so many have claimed is actually the best one for God’s existence? Kreeft provides a concise description: “The major premise of the argument is that every natural or innate desire in us bespeaks a corresponding real object that can satisfy the desire. The minor premise is that there exists in us a desire which nothing in time, nothing on earth, no creature, can satisfy. The conclusion is that there exists something outside of time, earth, and creatures which can satisfy this desire” (p 250).

A Short on the Argument from Desire (Goethe, Lewis, Kreeft)

The major premise of the argument is that every natural or innate desire in us bespeaks a corresponding real object that can satisfy the desire.

I don't even have to look at the rest of the argument. I see no reason to accept this premise at all. Number one its asserting that it has determined whats going on in the mind of all human beings with respect to all their desires. And what about the desire for a relationship with God? God is not a real object in the sense. He's neither spatial nor temporal. he can't be considered an object in any sense of the word. Or some people have a desire for peace in the world--that's not an object, that's a concept and or an abstraction. its not a real object at all.
 

idav

Being
Premium Member
But im still wondering what you mean by spirit and soul. Do those concepts have supernatural implications in your mind?
I think consciousness is a natural phenomenon and we confuse consiousness with being something separate but it likely isn't.
 

Grandliseur

Well-Known Member
the Earth was seen as flat, supported on pillars with water all around
I disagree.
You see the Bible as a collection of old writings conceived in the minds of ancient people whose knowledge was limited compared to what we know. I see it as God's inspired word, written by people He inspired to write what is in it. In this, it is again the focus and our paradigms that force different interpretations of the material. The two cannot be in harmony.

Funny how your skepticism cause a rejection of the material in scripture, while mine force a rejection of evolution and abiogenesis. But, it is OK to disagree. It also means that there is no reason to discuss the subject.
 

Grandliseur

Well-Known Member
I can give you evidence if you'd like
Sorry, your evidence is not accepted as proof of this.
The point is you think you believe what science teaches, yet, just last week, scientist discovered that our universe should not exist! That is so hilarious to me, but I have known about the problem a long time. (Universe shouldn’t exist, CERN physicists conclude | Cosmos)

So, being a little mean here. If the universe doesn't exist scientifically, that is, then its time doesn't tic toc.:D:D
You want to, it seems, rely 100% on science for what you believe are the answers though science keeps changing sometimes weekly, monthly, yearly, what it claims is true. My foundation is the Bible, next science.

I accept the Bible's teaching that God lives in his original reality, and that he created ours. This already tells me that his clock was working and counting when he created the universe we live in. That this universe has its own clock is another matter. It is like the baby born, its clock starts counting from its conception, or from birth since that is when I count my age. The parents, however, have their own life clocks that tic-toc -ed before the baby's birth, I hope. :)

You have to realize one thing, scientists claim that we are doomed on this planet. There is no way in hell or heaven that humanity will be able to find, and travel, to another planet to survive. The mass of humanity is destined scientifically to be exterminated. Science has no answers to our dilemmas, to war - how to even make peace among ourselves, how to take care of the poor, to prevent the rich from using their power to dehumanize the rest of us. etc.

The Bible gives hope and has all the answers we need, it is a gospel of Christ, i.e. good news of Christ. Atheism has no gospel. All it has is bad news of science regarding our future, of our future.:D:D
 

Nakosis

Non-Binary Physicalist
Premium Member
Okay but how is that a justification? Usually a justification is based on evidence and or on a logically necessary argument. It doesn't seem like personal feelings should count as a justification for rational belief.

I justify a lot of things by "because I feel like it". I don't believe people are all that logical or rational. They like to think they are but generally people believe what they feel is right and maybe try to rationalize after the fact.

However maybe I'm wrong. Maybe someone has a "rational" explanation for the soul not based on feelings. I'm just saying I expect it's all based on feelings.
 

SalixIncendium

अहं ब्रह्मास्मि
Staff member
Premium Member
But what reason do we have to believe that your analogy is accurate?

Is it falsifiable?

Either way, you asked for evidence or reasoning or logic to back up the existence of the 'soul.' I provided subjective evidence, reasoning, and logic. Believe it or don't.

Also why would we label consciousness as a soul? Consciousness seems like a perfectly good word already, so why try to attach a bunch of supernatural baggage by including the soul?

There is nothing "supernatural" about it. All humans have consciousness. What about it are you considering beyond natural?

As far as labeling is concerned, I avoid using the word 'soul' for two reasons. First, the soul by definition is an individual entity, which implies dualism, an entity separate from divinity. This goes against my view that my consciousness, or Self, is the same as the Absolute Consciousness, or what some refer to as God, but what I perceive more as a universal energy. The second you already exemplified for me in your response. The term 'soul' carries a stigma that science minded people immediately label as "supernatural." There is nothing "supernatural" about what a being is in its simplest, yet least simplistic, form.
 

serp777

Well-Known Member
Sorry, your evidence is not accepted as proof of this.
The point is you think you believe what science teaches, yet, just last week, scientist discovered that our universe should not exist! That is so hilarious to me, but I have known about the problem a long time. (Universe shouldn’t exist, CERN physicists conclude | Cosmos)

So, being a little mean here. If the universe doesn't exist scientifically, that is, then its time doesn't tic toc.:D:D
You want to, it seems, rely 100% on science for what you believe are the answers though science keeps changing sometimes weekly, monthly, yearly, what it claims is true. My foundation is the Bible, next science.

I accept the Bible's teaching that God lives in his original reality, and that he created ours. This already tells me that his clock was working and counting when he created the universe we live in. That this universe has its own clock is another matter. It is like the baby born, its clock starts counting from its conception, or from birth since that is when I count my age. The parents, however, have their own life clocks that tic-toc -ed before the baby's birth, I hope. :)

You have to realize one thing, scientists claim that we are doomed on this planet. There is no way in hell or heaven that humanity will be able to find, and travel, to another planet to survive. The mass of humanity is destined scientifically to be exterminated. Science has no answers to our dilemmas, to war - how to even make peace among ourselves, how to take care of the poor, to prevent the rich from using their power to dehumanize the rest of us. etc.

The Bible gives hope and has all the answers we need, it is a gospel of Christ, i.e. good news of Christ. Atheism has no gospel. All it has is bad news of science regarding our future, of our future.:D:D

Sorry, your evidence is not accepted as proof of this.

Nothing in science is accepted as absolute certainty. Everything in science consists of theories and probabilistic models of varying confidence. Proof exists solely in the realm of mathematics.

The point is you think you believe what science teaches, yet, just last week, scientist discovered that our universe should not exist!

Ok, well I don't know how the scientist determined that so i'm highly doubtful. And what does the scientist mean it "shouldn't" exist? And yes I have a reasonable confience in the scientific community and so do you. If you didn't have confidence in them you wouldn't be typing on the computer that relies on a massive amount of physics and material science as well as computer science.

So, being a little mean here. If the universe doesn't exist scientifically, that is, then its time doesn't tic toc.:D:D
You want to, it seems, rely 100% on science for what you believe are the answers though science keeps changing sometimes weekly, monthly, yearly, what it claims is true. My foundation is the Bible, next science.

Yeah but I don't accept that the universe doesn't exist scientifically. The fact that science occurs shows that its likely the universe does exist. What reason do you have to use the bible as your foundation? Do you also accept the old testament as the source for your morality as well? Do you accept the tenants in leviticus that justify and support slavery?

Also i don't rely 100% on science. I don't trust science 100%. I have a high degree of confidence in science but its not absolute certainty. And of course science changes, we're learning more and its becoming more accurate as time goes on. This computer wouldn't work if science didn't progress and learn more.

accept the Bible's teaching that God lives in his original reality, and that he created ours. This already tells me that his clock was working and counting when he created the universe we live in. That this universe has its own clock is another matter. It is like the baby born, its clock starts counting from its conception, or from birth since that is when I count my age. The parents, however, have their own life clocks that tic-toc -ed before the baby's birth, I hope. :)

Most theologians would claim that God exists outside of time, so what reason do you have to believe he has some different kind of time he was living in? Your claim that this analogy is accurately describing something we don't understand is unsupported.

You have to realize one thing, scientists claim that we are doomed on this planet. There is no way in hell or heaven that humanity will be able to find, and travel, to another planet to survive. The mass of humanity is destined scientifically to be exterminated. Science has no answers to our dilemmas, to war - how to even make peace among ourselves, how to take care of the poor, to prevent the rich from using their power to dehumanize the rest of us. etc.

I mean this is just completely irrelevant and consists of unsupported assertions. This is a red herring. The fact that science may or may not be useful for something doesn't show that science is invalid and it doesn't justify a belief in the soul or God.

The Bible gives hope and has all the answers we need, it is a gospel of Christ, i.e. good news of Christ. Atheism has no gospel. All it has is bad news of science regarding our future, of our future.
So because something gives us hope we should accept it as true?
 

area28

Member
I don't even have to look at the rest of the argument. I see no reason to accept this premise at all. Number one its asserting that it has determined whats going on in the mind of all human beings with respect to all their desires. And what about the desire for a relationship with God? God is not a real object in the sense. He's neither spatial nor temporal. he can't be considered an object in any sense of the word. Or some people have a desire for peace in the world--that's not an object, that's a concept and or an abstraction. its not a real object at all.

I dont know actually .... that just came to mind at the time
 
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