What's Wrong With Sincerely Saying, "Our Thoughts And Prayers Are With You."

[Ingledsva]

I don't have a problem with it and I know a lot of atheists don't. Richard Dawkins said that he says grace if asked to.
...

That reminded me of my Great Grandfather.

At dinners people always asked him to do grace. He would grin and say -

Good Food, Good Meat,

Good God, Let's eat!

*

 

[Ingledsva]

You all had interesting and pertinent things to say.

In my own recent "near-death" event, all my Christian friends told me they were praying for me. A couple of them even wanted to lay healing hands on me.

I let them, and thanked them. I figured what the hell, I'm not a believer, but it made them feel better, and it didn't hurt me. I knew they were caring in their own way.

Now, my Pagan and other friends told me how upset they were as well, but when we got home, - they dropped off loads of wood for the wood stove, and two deer, since I had been down south in the hospital for months, and we missed hunting season.

*

 

[Shadow Wolf]

I tend to not like such phrases, as I am not the one who needs some sort of miraculous divine protection. The people who need "god/angels watching over them" aren't fat privileged Americans, it's people in Syria, women and girls in refugee camps, and those still under the threat of ISIS.
To me, it's a matter of perspective.

That said, I do wish ill will on one liberal sports figure, but I also think this person has an a-hole personality. Yet, I bite my tongue. Is there something Jesus said about this?

Probably that you have caused them harm and ill intentions in your heart.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

It's the same as saying, "May the Force be with you," but not science fiction. It shows empathy. It shows being together with that person despite your differences.

In terms of religious ways to express sadness to someone who just lost a loved one, "our thoughts and prayers are with you" is a significant improvement over "he's in a better place now" or "he isn't suffering any more."

Edit: that being said, I see prayer as often a way to satisfy a person's desire to help in a situation but without doing anything actually useful. IOW, it can be very self-centred.

 

[Underhill]

It's the same as saying, "May the Force be with you," but not science fiction. It shows empathy. It shows being together with that person despite your differences.

I get some people get carried away with their religion ad nauseum, so I'm not talking about these religious nuts. However, there are internet atheists who do so, too, with their complaints.

The other complaint I have is politics being carried over to sports and consumerism. Just today, I've had to read people on both sides of the political spectrum taking pot shots at each other because a liberal sports figure cannot do their job due to health pain. It was unfortunate that this individual spoke out against Trump, but he does not deserve ill will for it. That said, I do wish ill will on one liberal sports figure, but I also think this person has an a-hole personality. Yet, I bite my tongue. Is there something Jesus said about this?

I've seen a dozen threads asking these kinds of questions of atheist, and have yet to hear an actual atheist complain about it.

It might mildly annoy some of us occasionally, but I don't know anyone who would jump on a soapbox and complain about it unless they've already had an epicly bad day.

 

[CogentPhilosopher]

I did not use the word 'between' but described three cases: atheist, believer, unknown as illustrations that what one says should be helpful to the receiver.

If one is going to express condolences it's natural to speak in a way that will help the other person. If I'm offering something to an atheist, I would not use 'prayer' but I would to a believer. If I'm not sure, I would use something neutral. Because it's not about me but about the person suffering a loss.

This seems to me at least to be implying that you beleive there is a mddleground between prayer and non-prayer. I'm just curious as to what that could be as they are mutually exclusive categories as far as I understand them.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I've seen a dozen threads asking these kinds of questions of atheist, and have yet to hear an actual atheist complain about it.

It might mildly annoy some of us occasionally, but I don't know anyone who would jump on a soapbox and complain about it unless they've already had an epicly bad day.

In the contexts when it usually comes up (e.g. when someone is seriously ill or has just died), it generally hasn't been something worth making a scene over for me.

If someone's trying to "comfort" me with religious platitudes, it'll just reinforce the fact that they don't know me at all (or that they know me and are doing it knowing it won't provide me comfort) and will only serve to create distance between us.

If this is in the context of, say, a funeral, where I won't have to deal with this relative again until the next family funeral, I'll usually just hold my tongue for the short time until the end of the service.

However, if I ever end up in the hospital for a long period and have to deal with this kind of behaviour on a continual basis, I might not be as patient. In that situation, Robert Ingersoll's response to "I'll pray for you" ("I forgive you") holds a lot of appeal.

I should say, though, that saying "I'll pray for you" at a funeral is a lot less offensive than taking photos of the deceased and posting them on social media, which happened at the last funeral I attended.

 

[Augustus]

It's generally just like saying best wishes, my thoughts are with you, or some other phrase like that.

It's never bothered me as it is said with good intentions. Seems a bit pompous and excessively thin-skinned to get annoyed because someone wishes you the best in a manner you deem sub-optimal.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

The other complaint I have is politics being carried over to sports and consumerism. Just today, I've had to read people on both sides of the political spectrum taking pot shots at each other because a liberal sports figure cannot do their job due to health pain. It was unfortunate that this individual spoke out against Trump, but he does not deserve ill will for it. That said, I do wish ill will on one liberal sports figure, but I also think this person has an a-hole personality. Yet, I bite my tongue. Is there something Jesus said about this?

There's this (Matthew 16:24):

Then Jesus told his disciples, “If anyone would come after me, let him take up his cross and follow me.

Frankly, I can't see the Jesus of the Gospels being keen on his followers getting involved in professional sports in the first place.

 

[Underhill]

It's generally just like saying best wishes, my thoughts are with you, or some other phrase like that.

It's never bothered me as it is said with good intentions. Seems a bit pompous and excessively thin-skinned to get annoyed because someone wishes you the best in a manner you deem sub-optimal.

Most people don't even think of it in a truly religious context. It is just what they have been conditioned to say.

 

[New Age Spiritual Leader]

It's the same as saying, "May the Force be with you," but not science fiction. It shows empathy. It shows being together with that person despite your differences.

I get some people get carried away with their religion ad nauseum, so I'm not talking about these religious nuts. However, there are internet atheists who do so, too, with their complaints.

The other complaint I have is politics being carried over to sports and consumerism. Just today, I've had to read people on both sides of the political spectrum taking pot shots at each other because a liberal sports figure cannot do their job due to health pain. It was unfortunate that this individual spoke out against Trump, but he does not deserve ill will for it. That said, I do wish ill will on one liberal sports figure, but I also think this person has an a-hole personality. Yet, I bite my tongue. Is there something Jesus said about this?

Thoughts are actual things that occur.

Prayers are not proven to occur, help in any way, and get this.....are just thoughts.

So in all truth...."thoughts and prayers" are the same things.....

Would you like to participate in a prayer experiment with me?

 

[sun rise]

This seems to me at least to be implying that you beleive there is a mddleground between prayer and non-prayer. I'm just curious as to what that could be as they are mutually exclusive categories as far as I understand them.

There are many ways to express condolences and that was my point. Logically one either mentions prayer or does not mention it.

 

[Milton Platt]

It's the same as saying, "May the Force be with you," but not science fiction. It shows empathy. It shows being together with that person despite your differences.

I get some people get carried away with their religion ad nauseum, so I'm not talking about these religious nuts. However, there are internet atheists who do so, too, with their complaints.

The other complaint I have is politics being carried over to sports and consumerism. Just today, I've had to read people on both sides of the political spectrum taking pot shots at each other because a liberal sports figure cannot do their job due to health pain. It was unfortunate that this individual spoke out against Trump, but he does not deserve ill will for it. That said, I do wish ill will on one liberal sports figure, but I also think this person has an a-hole personality. Yet, I bite my tongue. Is there something Jesus said about this?

Well, I'm an atheist, and it never bothers me. It's just a sincere showing of sympathy/empathy. I don't take the prayer part to be of value in any real way, but I do appreciate the feelings that are behind it.

 

[james bond]

Keyword 'sincere.' Some of the times 'I'll pray for you is just insincere code for 'I hope you realize you're wrong' or 'it would take an act of God for you to see you are wrong' and that's just being a prick.

Sometimes it can also seem insincere because it could be an empty gesture. 'I'll pray for you as a substitute 'I'll help you.' This is only when someone has the means to help but opts for prayer. This is especially aggravating when it's being said to someone you know doesn't believe prayer does anything. Sort of adding insult to injury. Two working hands does more than a million closed in prayer, and all that.

But in a helpless situation when there's nothing to do but aknowledge the pain someone else is going through? 'I'll keep you in my thoughts and prayers' wouldn't insult me.

Yeah, it's the latter. Generally speaking, it's usually in a tough situation where someone close has died, severely injured, has health problems, going off to something where one could get hurt such as war. I can see saying it to someone who's been out of work for a while and is still looking for a job, i.e. not giving up. Also, there is power in prayer if someone is sincere. For example, someone has done all they can to do something and now it's out of their hands. In church, we hear testimonies to this effect.

 

[james bond]

>>Thoughts are actual things that occur.

Prayers are not proven to occur, help in any way, and get this.....are just thoughts.

So in all truth...."thoughts and prayers" are the same things.....

Would you like to participate in a prayer experiment with me?<<

Maybe I'm reading you incorrectly. The first two sentences seem to contradict each other.

What if I do not think that thoughts and prayers are the same thing? I pray verbally just like saying grace. I don't think out loud.

++++++++

Some thoughts are affirmations. When one chants in a group or say affirmations in a group, then it's easier to remember it and feel the positive energy from it.

If one thinks about someone else's problems, then they may think of something or do something to help them. For example, I can't help someone who lives with an alcoholic or has an alcohol addiction. Thoughts and prayers doesn't help in this situation, but maybe you know a professional or a group that can help so you steer them towards that. It may not be easy to convince somebody to get help, so the thoughts and prayers are for you to have the courage and fortitude for sticking your nose in, or for guidance on what to do. The answer to your prayer could say don't stick your nose in this situation, as well.

Thoughts may also be intuitive and are from God.

As for prayer, it's to ask God to help them in their time of grief, something positive to happen for them or that they stay safe and harm does not fall upon them.

I do agree that if I know someone is an atheist, then I would not say it no matter how sincere I would be. I don't want to insult their beliefs. I think that birds of a feather flock together and that your close friends are people you share common beliefs with. Not everyone can help directly, but they may chip in money or start up a gofundme for you.

As for saying it to feel good about oneself, i.e. being selfish, then it's not sincere. It's to make the other person feel good and that you're there for them. It's like apologizing and then not following up on it.

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

>>Thoughts are actual things that occur.

Prayers are not proven to occur, help in any way, and get this.....are just thoughts.

So in all truth...."thoughts and prayers" are the same things.....

Would you like to participate in a prayer experiment with me?<<

Maybe I'm reading you incorrectly. The first two sentences seem to contradict each other.

What if I do not think that thoughts and prayers are the same thing? I pray verbally just like saying grace. I don't think out loud.

++++++++

Some thoughts are affirmations. When one chants in a group or say affirmations in a group, then it's easier to remember it and feel the positive energy from it.

If one thinks about someone else's problems, then they may think of something or do something to help them. For example, I can't help someone who lives with an alcoholic or has an alcohol addiction. Thoughts and prayers doesn't help in this situation, but maybe you know a professional or a group that can help so you steer them towards that. It may not be easy to convince somebody to get help, so the thoughts and prayers are for you to have the courage and fortitude for sticking your nose in, or for guidance on what to do. The answer to your prayer could say don't stick your nose in this situation, as well.

Thoughts may also be intuitive and are from God.

As for prayer, it's to ask God to help them in their time of grief, something positive to happen for them or that they stay safe and harm does not fall upon them.

I do agree that if I know someone is an atheist, then I would not say it no matter how sincere I would be. I don't want to insult their beliefs. I think that birds of a feather flock together and that your close friends are people you share common beliefs with. Not everyone can help directly, but they may chip in money or start up a gofundme for you.

Well said-- and you point out what ought to be obvious: humans are herd animals after all, and we do get strength and comfort from within groupings. Pure materalism says it's likely a placebo effect-- but so what?

A positive effect is still a positive effect regardless of the underlying cause; the brain-body connection is a light more complex than we realize, and there is strong evidence that positive mental attitude can have positive health benefits, including fighting disease or grief.

As for saying it to feel good about oneself, i.e. being selfish, then it's not sincere. It's to make the other person feel good and that you're there for them. It's like apologizing and then not following up on it.

Bullying. It can come from any sector, theistic or secular. It is unfortunate, but bullying is something else humans do as well-- I think it goes back to Tribalism, where the pecking order was paramount.

In a modern society, there really is little need for a firmly established Pecking Order, but we do it anyhow.

Instinctive behaviors, IMO, but we can be better than our base instincts--if we but try.

 

[viole]

It's the same as saying, "May the Force be with you," but not science fiction. It shows empathy. It shows being together with that person despite your differences.

I get some people get carried away with their religion ad nauseum, so I'm not talking about these religious nuts. However, there are internet atheists who do so, too, with their complaints.

The other complaint I have is politics being carried over to sports and consumerism. Just today, I've had to read people on both sides of the political spectrum taking pot shots at each other because a liberal sports figure cannot do their job due to health pain. It was unfortunate that this individual spoke out against Trump, but he does not deserve ill will for it. That said, I do wish ill will on one liberal sports figure, but I also think this person has an a-hole personality. Yet, I bite my tongue. Is there something Jesus said about this?

It depends.

1) when said amid the loss of a dear one --> no problem
2) when said amid hell bent disbelief --> insulting (of recipient's intelligence, mainly)

Ciao

- viole

 

[Segev Moran]

It's the same as saying, "May the Force be with you," but not science fiction. It shows empathy. It shows being together with that person despite your differences.

I get some people get carried away with their religion ad nauseum, so I'm not talking about these religious nuts. However, there are internet atheists who do so, too, with their complaints.

The other complaint I have is politics being carried over to sports and consumerism. Just today, I've had to read people on both sides of the political spectrum taking pot shots at each other because a liberal sports figure cannot do their job due to health pain. It was unfortunate that this individual spoke out against Trump, but he does not deserve ill will for it. That said, I do wish ill will on one liberal sports figure, but I also think this person has an a-hole personality. Yet, I bite my tongue. Is there something Jesus said about this?

I Don't think there is anything wrong with it as long as its genuine and said properly (not in a "your doomed" kinda way