whats your beef with brexit?

[England my lionheart]

How do Brexit supporters feel about the economic consequences of leaving EU? What I have read and heard seems to be conflicting perceptions. Apparently there is some controversy on what should change from EU's part.

They're are consequences for sure,but long term it will be better for us,for the other members its less so,after being out Ireland Greece and Spain Italy on the verge of bankruptcy it a good time to leave.

 

[LuisDantas]

Look at what the EU did to Greece. That's how good it is with economic policy.

I thought not even the Greek truly blamed the EU for what, to the best of my understanding, was a bad situation caused by widespread inconsequential economic habits in Greece. I guess you have a different understanding.

Whether in or out, I am not sure it'll make a huge difference and no-one seems to know (or tell the truth) anyway.

Many people seem to believe it will hurt the UK economically both in the short and long term. From my admittedly ill informed position I would assume that to be correct.

They're are consequences for sure,but long term it will be better for us,for the other members its less so,after being out Ireland Greece and Spain Italy on the verge of bankruptcy it a good time to leave.

Not sure why you would compare the UK to those other three countries.

 

[England my lionheart]

UKIP and Eurosceptic MPs have, yes. But not most people.

Enough to make it happen though.




Not the EU's fault as successive British Governments have a) underfunded the Borders Agency; and b) actually have the powers to impose restrictions on who can settle here based on income (the Netherlands and Germany have similar rules, I believe).

No nothings the EUs fault,it can't even be held accountable,its got a flag that means jack s**t,its not a level playing field,its not democratic for the people who cant vote for its directives,its soooo sloooow because of how big and how it runs its pretty much pointless.




A non-issue as the UK has a negotiated exemption meaning we don't even have to pledge to maybe think about getting around to contemplating joining the Euro at some unspecified point in the future. I suspect the vast majority of Leavers couldn't tell us how the Eurozone works. Corbyn himself said Scotland would be forced to use the Euro if we became independent which is a load of guff.

Phew,that wasn't just luck though right,as for Scotland and independence,quite ironic that giving up the union to be part of a federal Europe was some peoples idea of independence,however it seems that the Scottish people are not interested in that.




Their economies are weaker than ours right now. That doesn't mean they've always been weaker than ours, nor will they always be. Frankly, this is the risk when you trade with any smaller country or any country at all. At some point their economy might weaken in comparison to ours. It's not a good enough reason for us to stop trading with countries like Pakistan. The ironic thing is the UK economy is not doing so well and Brexit has made a bad situation worse.



The UK has a national debt of roughly £1.8tn. We have no money.

Short term it will be tricky but long term we will be fine,this is why we needed the mandate for a hard brexit.




Yet as long as even one state opposes European federalism enough to veto actions which would strengthen it, the possibility of a European superstate is zero. By removing ourselves from having any vote or veto in European laws, Brexiteers are making a European superstate more likely and their claims, quite ironically, become a self-fulfilling prophecy.

A European superstate is unworkable.

 

[blü 2]

Look at what the EU did to Greece.

I never worked out what the right thing to do to Greece might be.

They had a culture of welfare, which is fine. They had a culture of not paying taxes and of voting only for governments who did nothing about the existing debt but increase it.

Even my expat Greek friends, or rather, especially my Greek friends, say, What were they expecting instead?

 

[England my lionheart]

[QUOTE="LuisDantas, post: 5298391, member: 162



Not sure why you would compare the UK to those other three countries.[/QUOTE]

There is no comparison,I should have worded it differently,I only meant before they sink,hope they don't though.

 

[England my lionheart]

I never worked out what the right thing to do to Greece might be.

They had a culture of welfare, which is fine. They had a culture of not paying taxes and of voting only for governments who did nothing about the existing debt but increase it.

Even my expat Greek friends, or rather, especially my Greek friends, say, What were they expecting instead?

Austerity is what they got from the bundersbank.

 

[Rival]

I never worked out what the right thing to do to Greece might be.

They had a culture of welfare, which is fine. They had a culture of not paying taxes and of voting only for governments who did nothing about the existing debt but increase it.

Even my expat Greek friends, or rather, especially my Greek friends, say, What were they expecting instead?

While this may be true (I honestly don't know) the situation could have been much better dealt with than it was/is. And it would be negotiable if it were just Greece, but Italy's in a financial meltdown now and so is Spain. All three are eurozone countries and two of those countries have experienced considerable influx of migrants from the M.E., which the EU has also not properly dealt with. The eurozone is a house of cards that is rapidly collapsing and people ask us why we wanted to leave.

 

[blü 2]

While this may be true (I honestly don't know) the situation could have been much better dealt with than it was/is.

I'll take your word for it. As I said, I have no recipe of my own to offer.

And it would be negotiable if it were just Greece, but Italy's in a financial meltdown now and so is Spain.

Yes, and no one made any serious effort to curtail their power to go on borrowing back when it mattered.

All three are Eurozone countries and two of those countries have experienced considerable influx of migrants from the M.E., which the EU has also not properly dealt with.

Their financial practices were at best dubious long before that crisis broke. But immigration is a different problem and I agree that the EU has just kept fumbling the problem.

The eurozone is a house of cards that is rapidly collapsing and people ask us why we wanted to leave.

That's possible. We'll see.

But if in the washup it were stripped down to Germany, France and Scandanavia, that might have some kick to it.

 

[sun rise]

As a meta-comment, the discussion here has been a lot more informative and reasoned than what we're now seeing in the USA. I've learned something more about Brexit and the arguments around it than I knew before and for an internet forum thread discussing politics and economics, that's close to a divine miracle.

 

[LuisDantas]

Austerity is what they got from the bundersbank.

Austerity seems to be what they needed if they hoped to avoid a catastrophical collapse, so I don't think that counts as a demerit for the EU.

 

[Rival]

Austerity seems to be what they needed if they hoped to avoid a catastrophical collapse, so I don't think that counts as a demerit for the EU.

Austerity is what we've been given since The Great Recession and it hasn't really helped. Like, at all.

 

[The Holy Bottom Burp]

I never worked out what the right thing to do to Greece might be.

They had a culture of welfare, which is fine. They had a culture of not paying taxes and of voting only for governments who did nothing about the existing debt but increase it.

Even my expat Greek friends, or rather, especially my Greek friends, say, What were they expecting instead?

I think that may be part of the problem with the EU, most countries joined it because they thought it was a route to economic prosperity without the hard decisions, without the "personal responsibility" for poor governmental decisions or lack of a cultural "work ethic". The EU will always be there to bail us out right? Oh no, not the case, if you f*ck up you are on your own. There is no safety net, unless you consider a parsimonious loan from Germany a safety net. So, you might ask, what does the EU actually exist for? It is a good question. It isn't social harmony, it isn't financial security and uniformity. Another layer of government? For sure, but I think most countries in Europe have plenty of government already. I think it will probably be disbanded in the future, it really needs to demonstrate some big "wins" asap, or the poorer nations that form part of it may decide they may as well take a punt on "independence". Never mind social harmony/integration, money talks, people will live with a lot as long as they have a fat wallet.

 

[Rival]

I think that may be part of the problem with the EU, most countries joined it because they thought it was a route to economic prosperity without the hard decisions, without the "personal responsibility" for poor governmental decisions or lack of a cultural "work ethic". The EU will always be there to bail us out right? Oh no, not the case, if you f*ck up you are on your own. There is no safety net, unless you consider a parsimonious loan from Germany a safety net. So, you might ask, what does the EU actually exist for? It is a good question. It isn't social harmony, it isn't financial security and uniformity. Another layer of government? For sure, but I think most countries in Europe have plenty of government already. I think it will probably be disbanded in the future, it really needs to demonstrate some big "wins" asap, or the poorer nations that form part of it may decide they may as well take a punt on "independence". Never mind social harmony/integration, money talks, people will live with a lot as long as they have a fat wallet.

I kept asking this all the time: what is the point of the E.U.? What is the point of it?

Vague responses.

 

[The Holy Bottom Burp]

I kept asking this all the time: what is the point of the E.U.? What is the point of it?

Vague responses.

Correct, the Remain campaign apparently thought a few platitudes and threats of economic isolation was enough to keep the Proles in line.. Looks like they got that one wrong doesn't it?

 

[Rival]

Correct, the Remain campaign apparently thought a few platitudes and threats of economic isolation was enough to keep the Proles in line.. Looks like they got that one wrong doesn't it?

We thought the E.U. itself is the economic threat lmao.

 

[LuisDantas]

Austerity is what we've been given since The Great Recession and it hasn't really helped. Like, at all.

I don't know that we truly have the means to tell. Without some form of scooping into alternate timelines, we have to make educated guesses on whether other ways would turn out worse or better.

Myself, I tend to believe that the economic situations in most places are difficult to sustain mainly because populations grow way too fast for proper planning and maintenance of quality of life, while our reliance on unsustainable resources (fossil fuels, but also various aspects of consumption-oriented lifestyles) runs amok, and our educational levels seem to have stagnated or worse.

 

[The Emperor of Mankind]

A European superstate is unworkable.

Do elaborate as to why a European superstate is unworkable. Please use as much detail as possible.

 

[The Emperor of Mankind]

Look at what the EU did to Greece. That's how good it is with economic policy.

Whether in or out, I am not sure it'll make a huge difference and no-one seems to know (or tell the truth) anyway.

If the EU let the Greek government collapse under the weight of its own insolvency then Eurosceptics would be complaining about how the EU couldn't be trusted to help out its own members when the going gets tough. It can't win.

This wouldn't have even happened if the Greek governments of the time had taken responsibility for their irresponsible borrowing & spending policies as well as actually done something to address endemic tax evasion by the wealthy (and the poorer citizens who didn't feel like making up the resulting shortfall).

 

[Rival]

If the EU let the Greek government collapse under the weight of its own insolvency then Eurosceptics would be complaining about how the EU couldn't be trusted to help out its own members when the going gets tough. It can't win.

This wouldn't have even happened if the Greek governments of the time had taken responsibility for their irresponsible borrowing & spending policies as well as actually done something to address endemic tax evasion by the wealthy (and the poorer citizens who didn't feel like making up the resulting shortfall).

I just think that the whole thing was a farce that could have been better dealt with by both parties.

 

[blü 2]

I think that may be part of the problem with the EU, most countries joined it because they thought it was a route to economic prosperity without the hard decisions, without the "personal responsibility" for poor governmental decisions or lack of a cultural "work ethic".

Human, all too human, as Nietzsche (or his translator) said ─ the old traditional typing of sweaty, slack, lusty, Catholic Mediterraneans and icebound, virtuous, disciplined, Protestant northerners, with France in the middle.

And emigration to another EU country where things are better is consciously part of the EU setup, and according to the press a major Brexit chafing point. If I were an educated Latvian I wouldn't stay in Latvia.

So, you might ask, what does the EU actually exist for? It is a good question.

Certainly to form a free trade zone. And behind that, idealism, the dream of a united Europe where WW2 could never happen again.

And that would account for the curious adventure with the Euro, which deprived those states which chose it of their economic flexibility ─ not least Greece, Italy and Spain.