What's your take on suffering and pain?

[Koldo]

If you wanted to minimise suffering you'd probably make most or all of the NPCs "philosophical zombies". So you'd only be choosing genuine suffering for yourself. Otherwise all of the NPCs wouldn't have consented to their suffering.

Can you think of no better way?

You would believe that after your simulated life you would think all of the suffering was worth it - like people climbing Mount Everest, etc. Or at least it was an interesting experience.

Except not everyone finds it worth it.

 

[excreationist]

Can you think of no better way?

Well in a simulation it is much cheaper to not make NPCs truly conscious and capable of suffering... while appearing to be truly conscious. So that reduces the problem of suffering by a huge amount.

Except not everyone finds it worth it.

Well I'll just quote what Alan Watts said again:

To forget that you were dreaming so that you would think it was all for real. And to be anxious about it. Because it’d be so great when you wake up. And then you say well like children who dare each other on things, how far out could you get? Or could you take what dimension of being lost, of abandonment, of your power, what dimension of that could you stand you could ask yourself this because you know you would eventually wake up.

So he's not saying that people would necessarily find the simulation "worth it". So anyway even if our consent is problematic if you don't make NPCs truly conscious and capable of suffering then you've reduced the problem of suffering by 99.9999999875% (1 / 8 billion percent)

 

[Koldo]

Well in a simulation it is much cheaper to not make NPCs truly conscious and capable of suffering... while appearing to be truly conscious. So that reduces the problem of suffering by a huge amount.

Cheaper? Who's buying? Who's selling? With what money?

Well I'll just quote what Alan Watts said again:

So he's not saying that people would necessarily find the simulation "worth it".

But he is saying that through this sentence: "Because it’d be so great when you wake up."

So anyway even if our consent is problematic if you don't make NPCs truly conscious and capable of suffering then you've reduced the problem of suffering by 99.9999999875% (1 / 8 billion percent)

Through treating everyone and everything as mere objects that exist only to serve you... sure.

 

[excreationist]

Cheaper? Who's buying? Who's selling? With what money?

In the case of the Roy game I think Rick paid for it for Morty at Blips and Chitz:

The point is in that scenario ordinary people are running simulations - i.e. there would be large numbers of simulations...

But he is saying that through this sentence: "Because it’d be so great when you wake up."

Ok then maybe everyone would find it worth it (according to Alan Watts). Maybe those that don't are NPCs rather than the original player.

Through treating everyone and everything as mere objects that exist only to serve you... sure.

NPCs could include people that want to abuse or exploit me - so they aren't necessarily serving me (just providing a greater challenge in my life). And there is no way of telling if they're a philosophical zombie or not. It's easier to just assume everyone is genuinely conscious. It is up to the people running the possible simulation to decide if everyone would be genuinely suffering and they'd have to pay a lot extra for the additional computing resources.

 

[Koldo]

In the case of the Roy game I think Rick paid for it for Morty at Blips and Chitz:

The point is in that scenario ordinary people are running simulations - i.e. there would be large numbers of simulations...

It is unfounded to make any assumptions about which simulation mode would be cheaper since there is nothing to base that on though.

Ok then maybe everyone would find it worth it (according to Alan Watts). Maybe those that don't are NPCs rather than the original player.

On what grounds would you make this assumption though?

NPCs could include people that want to abuse or exploit me - so they aren't necessarily serving me.

But if you have willing decided to engage in a simulation where you knew that you could be abused and exploited by a NPC then they are still serving you.

And there is no way of telling if they're a philosophical zombie or not. It's easier to just assume everyone is genuinely conscious. It is up to the people running the possible simulation to decide if everyone would be genuinely suffering and they'd have to pay a lot extra for the additional computing resources.

Then what explanatory power if any is added by presuming there is a simulation going on?

 

[excreationist]

It is unfounded to make any assumptions about which simulation mode would be cheaper since there is nothing to base that on though.

I know quite a lot about AI and simulations. With AI an approximation of a human is cheaper to simulate than a perfect copy. This is similar to an approximation of the Sun. You could make a realistic looking Sun in a video game but it would be a lot more expensive if it was exact because the Sun has about 10^57 atoms. That's 1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 atoms. BTW simulating an entire brain purely inside a simulation doesn't necessarily mean they'd experience genuine suffering anyway (if consciousness isn't a purely physical process).

On what grounds would you make this assumption though?

It's just a guess - I might be wrong.

But if you have willing decided to engage in a simulation where you knew that you could be abused and exploited by a NPC then they are still serving you.

Ok.

Then what explanatory power if any is added by presuming there is a simulation going on?

In simulations it makes sense that there could be a non-obvious intelligent force that exists. I believe it's given clues to its existence to me. e.g.
"I wanted to annoy God so I was reading a Gideon's Bible upside-down then soon after I was given my own sealed Bible - inside it was upside-down!" (I was in a mental ward at the time - I also have other stories)

Though I said it is non-obvious and skeptics would always explain this as coincidence, delusion, hallucinations, or fraud. So these are just personal beliefs.

 

[Koldo]

I know quite a lot about AI and simulations. With AI an approximation of a human is cheaper to simulate than a perfect copy. This is similar to an approximation of the Sun. You could make a realistic looking Sun in a video game but it would be a lot more expensive if it was exact because the Sun has about 10^57 atoms. That's 1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 atoms. BTW simulating an entire brain purely inside a simulation doesn't necessarily mean they'd experience genuine suffering anyway (if consciousness isn't a purely physical process).

Since we are talking about technology that doesn't exist inside this "simulation" it is impossible to make a proper evaluation. It might actually be entirely be free of charge.

It's just a guess - I might be wrong.

A guess based on what?

In simulations it makes sense that there could be a non-obvious intelligent force that exists.

It is the same outside the simulation though.

I believe it's given clues to its existence to me. e.g.
"I wanted to annoy God so I was reading a Gideon's Bible upside-down then soon after I was given my own sealed Bible - inside it was upside-down!" (I was in a mental ward at the time - I also have other stories)

Though I said it is non-obvious and skeptics would always explain this as coincidence, delusion, hallucinations, or fraud. So these are just personal beliefs.

Even if we don't brush it aside as a coincidence, what explanatory power the simulation offers that other explanations don't?

 

[excreationist]

Since we are talking about technology that doesn't exist inside this "simulation" it is impossible to make a proper evaluation.

A lot of progress is being made - e.g. realistic laughter and sense of humour - for NPCs:

And impressive text-to-video:

https://openai.com/index/sora/

It might actually be entirely be free of charge.

Even doing a single operation on a computer costs money so it is unlikely that NPCs would be less expensive than that.

It is the same outside the simulation though.

Do you mean the outer world could also have a non-obvious intelligent force?

Even if we don't brush it aside as a coincidence, what explanatory power the simulation offers that other explanations don't?

It explains why there don't seem to be any other life forms in space - my explanation - to save computing resources. And why time and space are discrete rather than continuous.

 

[PearlSeeker]

Even doing a single operation on a computer costs money so it is unlikely that NPCs would be less expensive than that.

This applies only to simulation in simulation. Why do you assume the same economy and resources in reality outside simulation? It could be different.

 

[excreationist]

This applies only to simulation in simulation. Why do you assume the same economy and resources in reality outside simulation? It could be different.

I think it is more likely the physics of the world outside would resemble the physics of the game. That includes computers that cost resources to run rather than free infinite computing power. Even if infinite computing was free it would still take time and time is discrete which means that within a given time span there is a limit to the number of events it can contain. I'm not saying your idea is impossible just very unlikely.

 

[PearlSeeker]

... and time is discrete...

Actually we don't know that. It's just one of possibilities.

 

[excreationist]

Actually we don't know that. It's just one of possibilities.

In our world time is discrete. If the time in the outside world had infinite resolution then why bother trying to cut corners by having discrete time in our world?

 

[PearlSeeker]

In our world time is discrete.

Why do you think so?

 

[excreationist]

Why do you think so?

Planck time - Simple English Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

simple.wikipedia.org

The Planck time is the length of time at which no smaller meaningful length can be validly measured due to the indeterminacy expressed in Werner Heisenberg's uncertainty principle. Theoretically, this is the shortest time measurement that is possible.

Do you think that time might actually be infinitely small in resolution within our world? And I mean literally infinite. i.e. an infinite number of decimal places....

 

[PearlSeeker]

Planck time - Simple English Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

simple.wikipedia.org

Do you think that time might actually be infinitely small in resolution within our world? And I mean literally infinite. i.e. an infinite number of decimal places....

Planck time is the shortest measurable time. Not the shortest time.

 

[excreationist]

Planck time is the shortest measurable time. Not the shortest time.

I think in the simulation it wouldn't make any difference whether it saved the time stamp to the nearest Planck time or whether it was stored with infinite resolution. Note that infinite resolution would take an infinite amount of memory to store and would take an infinite amount of time to parse (assuming you're using a computer based on our physics). So why would the simulation do that? Just so that I could be proved wrong?

 

[PearlSeeker]

I think in the simulation it wouldn't make any difference whether it saved the time stamp to the nearest Planck time or whether it was stored with infinite resolution. Note that infinite resolution would take an infinite amount of memory to store and would take an infinite amount of time to parse (assuming you're using a computer based on our physics). So why would the simulation do that? Just so that I could be proved wrong?

I'm just saying that Planck units are not proof for discrete space and time.

 

[excreationist]

I'm just saying that Planck units are not proof for discrete space and time.

I think if time doesn't require an infinite amount of decimal places then it is discrete.

 

[wellwisher]

I do, that doesn't mean that I believe every single thing is because of divine punishment. If you crash your car on an icy road is it because you did something that your religion says is bad, or is it because you hafta go to work and live in a region with winter weather?

If you smoke multiple times a day for years on end, there's a strong probability that you'll suffer severe respiratory issues. Is that divine retribution for earthly pleasures, or is it you indulging even though you know about the health risks that come with it?

If you got robbed and killed, then it wasn't anyone's fault except for the psycho who assaulted you.

The Gods don't need to parent and punish us every step of the way, and certainly not for every single itty bitty thing.

Sometimes bad stuff happens, because life is unpredictable and there's no guarantee that you will live a long or happy life.

Suffering if often a state of mind, due to the ego striving and not reaching its subjective desires or its images of perfection. This could be the teen age girl or boy suffering from self image problems, that even their parents and friends cannot sooth. If the goal of your striving is a perfect textbook life; good job, nice home, loving spouse and children, and you fall short or bugs appear in the perfection; people change, many people suffer, based on their own rules, hopes and expectations. As I get older and learn not to strive for things I cannot change, but flow with life, this simple change of attitude takes way suffering. We have will and choice to suffer and even play the martyr. We can blame God for our failure, to fulfill our own lofty expectations.

For example, transgender people choose to be the martyr, since common sense and experience tells us this lifestyle will rub many people the wrong way and create negative feedback. It will be impossible to change the entire world and everyone else, so a few can strive toward their subjective desire. That is the choice one makes. But if you accept the inevitable and not amplify the negative feedback loop, rubbing too hard against the fur of culture, you can still find a place of peace and self acceptance; more self contained.

You make a good point... Damien died and his post was vacant. That's where the analogy to Jesus breaks down. Jesus died but rose again to continue offering ministry to the hurting and give us eternal life.

I don't know of any other religion whose God became human to suffer along with us. I find it remarkable.

Jesus and others helped people gain a sense of perspective that takes away their suffering, like forgiveness of sins. The Lepers still remained Lepers, but they found a new center with the help of the Priest. The world is still the same, but one learns to be more accepting of imperfections in ourselves and others.

Jesus speaks about the old self dying; ego. The human ego is the point central of suffering; subjective striving based on the superego of culture. While the inner man, or inner self, brings us back to a natural attitude. The life of natural animals is tougher than what human have, since they are often on their own and have no cultural logistics or welfare state. They have to live outside with predators, in cold and hot. Yet, animals find a way to be content and even happy, living in harmony with their inner instincts.

Small children are natural and unless they are hungry, they can find joy in simplicity. Less you be as children you cannot enter the kingdom of contentment. Small children do not have a full powered ego, but are spontaneous due to their inner self and natural human instincts. Religion is about a return to paradise; natural man. But that is harder to do while also living in the land of egos and collective striving and suffering due to falling short of one's and the group's desires and expectations.

 

[Betho_br]

Exodus 34:7 King James Version
Keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, and that will by no means clear the guilty; visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, and upon the children's children, unto the third and to the fourth generation.

1) Genetic diseases can be defined as changes in the sequence of some genes that are part of the DNA. They can be hereditary.

2) Depending on the type of sin we commit with our neighbors, we can trigger these genetic diseases to manifest themselves, whether in the present or in the future in our children.

3) The way we deal with hurt and resentment profoundly affects our being and the way people show affection towards us.

4) The ethnic issue is a source of much suffering.

5) We circumvented natural selection, that is, in the past we created "bubbles" to protect ourselves from diseases, we used excessive medicines and thus generated genetically weakened beings.

6) Genesis 5:27 New International Version: Altogether, Methuselah lived a total of 969 years, and then he died. There is genetic programming that delays pain and suffering.

7) There are genetic changes that exclude pain and suffering.

8) There will be medicines that will deceive the Nociceptors and brain chemistry, eliminating pain and suffering.

9) There will be medicines that will make our organs, teeth, bones regenerate.