• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
In Newton´s own time his scientific colleges accused him for inserting an unexplainable "occult agency" - but may be maybe you don´t take occult forces as woo?
Actually, concerning the nature of gravitational force Newton (in his rightfully famous Philosophiae Naturalis Principia Mathematica) we find the well-known phrase "hypotheses non fingo." However, it is so well known that the nuances and extent to which Newton elsewhere seems indeed to suggest more than he states in this passage that it is more important here to note what Newton wrote elsewhere and quite explicitly. Namely, in a letter to Richard Bentley Newton writes:
"Tis unconceivable that inanimate brute matter should (without the mediation of something else which is not material) operate upon & affect other matter without mutual contact; as it must if gravitation in the sense of Epicurus be essential & inherent in it. And this is one reason why I desired you would not ascribe {innate} gravity to me. That gravity should be innate inherent & {essential} to matter so that one body may act upon another at a distance through a vacuum without the mediation of any thing else by & through which their action or force {may} be conveyed from one to another is to me so great an absurdity that I beleive no man who has in philosophical matters any competent faculty of thinking can ever fall into it." (emphasis added)
In other words, perhaps the plainest, clearest and most extreme critic of the idea that Newtonian gravitation should be understood as a force or in general as mediating interactions between and among "bodies" in the manner described by Newtonian mechanics was...Isaac Newton.
Elsehwere he makes it fairly obvious that God is the "agent" he personally (it seems) appears to find necessary to explain what it is that his "gravitational laws" merely describe (i.e., the equations and geometric arguments one finds in Newton's work concerning mechanics do not postulate a force in the sense of an actual physical force mediating interactions or otherwise existing and acting upon matter; they provide a description via a "blackbox" that one can use in order to make quantitative predictions and models). Indeed, the vast majority of the founders of physics and early modern science more generally were interested in natural philosophy as a form of a sort of applied theism, which is how today we have that most important and ubiquitious principle governing the nature and structure of a vast and varied number of physical theories- the principle of least action (formulated originally by Maupertuis and extended and generalized principally by Euler and with the same idea: that a most supreme and perfect Creator would endow in his creation such properties that reflect his essential nature and therefore that the laws of natural philosophy/physics should, would and are in fact those which are optimal)
A central motivation Einstein had in his construction of a general theory of relativity was that of forever ridding modern physics of the vestiges of radical nonlocality leftover from Newtonian gravitation (even after being reformulated in terms of locally acting fields).
Hence, we can today do what Newton himself intended: understand Newtonian gravitation not in terms of an actually existing physical force but as a descriptive "blackbox" into which we can plug constants and out of which we will obtain predictions that are, in the main, more than accurate enough. However, Newtonian gravitation is an effective force, meaning that it is understood to be a descriptive approximation underlying something radically different (again, something akin to what Newton intended) much the same way that equations governing ensembles in statistical mechanics is understood or the use of the RG flow in condensed matter physics and many-body physics is. It is somewhat different from effective field theories in general, however, as we do not quantize it up to some arbitrary level of precision whereupon we extract predictions via renormalization and regularization as we do in EFTs more generically.
 

Native

Free Natural Philosopher & Comparative Mythologist
Native said:
The only way we can decide this question is then for you to explain logically which came first.
If you don't accept evolution, I'm not going to bother to try to educate you.
The evolution theory doesn´t say anything about the origin of life, i.e. whether the egg or the hen came first, so you haven´t explained anything yet about this question.

The only thing you´ve done yet is to reject my logical BOTH explanation above.
 

Native

Free Natural Philosopher & Comparative Mythologist
Hence, we can today do what Newton himself intended: understand Newtonian gravitation not in terms of an actually existing physical force but as a descriptive "blackbox" into which we can plug constants and out of which we will obtain predictions that are, in the main, more than accurate enough.
Thanks for your historic elaborations :)

And indeed many "constants" have later on been put in this "descriptive blackbox", starting off with Newtons "laws of celestial motion" which he mathematically got pretty right - still without explaining his assumed force. He only succeeded with putting equations to already known planetary motions.

Newton simply assumed the overall orbital velocity pressure on the Earth to be a draw from the Earth instead of a press on the Earth. He then took this resistive terrestrial "g"-force to be a planetary law in the Solar System. In this weird way even modern science can use this "reversed law" in space craft launchings and extra terrestrial navigation.

And later on, his assume g-law was directly contradicted in the galactic scales by the observation of the galactic rotation curve, and later discarded by Einstein and his "field-gravitational" law - which also is speculatively inconsistent when not counting on the orbital "field" velocity pressures on different planets according to their sizes and orbital velocities.

Today, several other "scientific constants" are put into "Newtons descriptive blackbox" as "dark matter" and "heavy black holes". Lots of other cosmic assumptions are now connected to Newtons initial g-misconception. In fact, science has taken an initial terrestrial physical pressure to count as a general draw all over in the cosmos, as also in their Solar System formation explanations.

Any logical thinking human can guess what kind of valid predictions can be made when taking a terrestrial physical planetary orbital velocity pressure to count as a physical attractive pull working in the entire Universe.
 
Last edited:

ecco

Veteran Member
If you understand and accept evolution then you already know the answer.

If you don't accept evolution, I'm not going to bother to try to educate you.


The evolution theory doesn´t say anything about the origin of life, i.e. whether the egg or the hen came first, so you haven´t explained anything yet about this question.

I wasn't referring to the origin of life. If I was referring to the origin of life, I would have used the term abiogenesis. But, as I said, regarding your hen/egg "dilemma", I'm not going to bother to explain evolution to you.






The only thing you´ve done yet is to reject my logical BOTH explanation above.
Yes.
 

Native

Free Natural Philosopher & Comparative Mythologist
I wasn't referring to the origin of life. If I was referring to the origin of life, I would have used the term abiogenesis. But, as I said, regarding your hen/egg "dilemma", I'm not going to bother to explain evolution to you.
And luckily you don´t have to either.
 

tas8831

Well-Known Member
The good Anton Petrov forgets to go deeper into the phenomenon which creates the very electromagnetic charge and motions in the fertilized egg cell.
What is your actual evidence that this has anything to do with an "electromagnetic charge"?
When looking at the principles of fertilization, we have an attractive female bio-electromagnetic monopole cell which is charged by a male bipolar bio-electromagnetic expanding cell which initiates the growth and divisions of the fertilized egg cell to become a new life.
That is not at all what happens. The cortical granules release zinc ions in response to the sperm binding.
This electromagnetic principle takes place all over in micro- and macrocosm.
No it doesn't. You're not much of a scientist.
The electromagnetic formation is certainly an universal principle.
Unwarranted and hilarious extrapolation.

For the goobers claiming this shows the soul entering the egg, this phenomenon was first seen in mice.
So apparently mice have souls, too?

And not only that, but some 'sparks' are 'brighter' than others - I guess some souls are better than others???

My gosh how people with agendas extrapolate and embellish to the point of absurdity.

Scientists Just Captured The Flash of Light That Sparks When a Sperm Meets an Egg
 

Native

Free Natural Philosopher & Comparative Mythologist
What is your actual evidence that this has anything to do with an "electromagnetic charge"?
Simply because all atoms and molecules have electromagnetic properties and can be ionized and governed by electromagnetic currents and magnetic fields, in this matter on the bio electromagnetic scales.
For the goobers claiming this shows the soul entering the egg, this phenomenon was first seen in mice.
So apparently mice have souls, too?
And this logically took place eons before humans discovered this. And as this fertilizing process is similar in lots of species, it logically is an universal phenomenon.

Regarding the observed (electromagnetic) light observed in fertilisation, this just tell my that LIGTH resembles consciousness and creation in large and in all EM frequencies.

As for the rest of your loose comments, I don´t care at all.
 
Last edited:

Valjean

Veteran Member
Premium Member
God is First
God is real
You're preaching, and not supporting unevidenced claims.
So what's your point? Are you trying to convert people, or convince anyone? Only the faithful are convinced by mere claims or unevidenced statements.

Substitute Cthulu, or Odin for "God" -- are you convinced?
 

paarsurrey

Veteran Member
Yes, its surely something of a celebration of female and male forces. God and Goddess are real.
What stage it is in the following verse of Quran, please?:

23:13
وَ لَقَدۡ خَلَقۡنَا الۡاِنۡسَانَ مِنۡ سُلٰلَۃٍ مِّنۡ طِیۡنٍ ﴿ۚ۱۳﴾
Verily, We created man from an extract of clay;
23:14
ثُمَّ جَعَلۡنٰہُ نُطۡفَۃً فِیۡ قَرَارٍ مَّکِیۡنٍ ﴿۪۱۴﴾
Then We placed him as a drop of sperm in a safe depository;
23:15
ثُمَّ خَلَقۡنَا النُّطۡفَۃَ عَلَقَۃً فَخَلَقۡنَا الۡعَلَقَۃَ مُضۡغَۃً فَخَلَقۡنَا الۡمُضۡغَۃَ عِظٰمًا فَکَسَوۡنَا الۡعِظٰمَ لَحۡمًا ٭ ثُمَّ اَنۡشَاۡنٰہُ خَلۡقًا اٰخَرَ ؕ فَتَبٰرَکَ اللّٰہُ اَحۡسَنُ الۡخٰلِقِیۡنَ ﴿ؕ۱۵﴾
Then We fashioned the sperm into a clot; then We fashioned the clot into a shapeless lump; then We fashioned bones out of this shapeless lump; then We clothed the bones with flesh; then We developed it into another creation. So blessed be Allah, the Best of creators.
Holy Quran: Read, Listen and Search
Right?

Regards
 
Top