Green Gaia
Veteran Member
Yes it is. I hope it wasn't gay people who did it who should know better having known what it's like to be terrorized and made to fear. Whomever did this should be arrested.
-
Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:- Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
- Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
- Access to private conversations with other members.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!
When advocacy becomes a hate crime ...
- Thread starter Jayhawker Soule
- Start date
Yes it is. I hope it wasn't gay people who did it who should know better having known what it's like to be terrorized and made to fear. Whomever did this should be arrested.
YmirGF
Bodhisattva in Recovery
One could look at this as simply being the cost of doing business. When a easily identifiable group can be clearly associated with one side of a highly charged issue, that group should expect some form of retribution from the more frenetic elements on the other side of the issue. What those frenetic elements don't appreciate is, that by burning a given book, they are merely adding fuel to the arguments of those who are against them, proving, to an extent, that their values really are under fire. In some ways, it's almost poetic.
I think No*s is just echoing an idea that I've heard from many Americans; there is a strong idea in American culture that freedom of speech is sacrosanct.
Now, I do think that leaving a burning Book of Mormon on the steps of an LDS meeting house is more than just littering, and spray painting a synagogue with a swastika is more than just vandalism, but I do recognize that to a great extent, American law and I don't see eye-to-eye on the issue.
But since you didn't want this to derail into a discussion of the law, I'll leave it at that.
So where's the "retribution from the more frenetic elements" toward, say, the Catholic Church? They supported Prop 8 just as much as the LDS Church, if not moreso: I looked through the public record contribution list for the "yes on 8" campaign (the largest donors, anyhow); while there were a fair number of donations from Utah, there didn't seem to be anything from the LDS Church itself officially. OTOH, the Knights of Columbus, an organization officially affiliated with the Catholic Church, donated close to $1.5 million to the "yes" campaign just on its own.
It's bad enough to hear about book burnings and the like, but it seems like the LDS Church is unjustifiably being singled out for special treatment on this issue and that bothers me as well.
texan1
Active Member
I agree. It's so frustrating when this stuff happens because it actually hurts the cause and the people who are fighting for it in a peaceful way. Hopefully these kind of incidents will not be used to help justify prop 8.
YmirGF
Bodhisattva in Recovery
It would seem reasonable that in cases like this it would depend on how prominently a given group interjected themselves into the public consciousness. Those with a lower public profile, regardless of how much they actually spent, would not likely generate as much potentially negative attention as those with a higher public profile.
To be fair, the folks who burned tBoM, should also have left burnt Bible offerings on the steps of other religious groups. But, then again, it isn't like much in life is fair. In any case, the perpetrators of these heinous deeds are not helping "the cause" to progress.
I haven't really followed these events, due to my lack of interest in the issue, but I have still managed to hear about the Mormon opposition and little else from other quarters.
Last edited:
texan1
Active Member
Hopefully, prop 8 will not be used to justify these actions.
Yes of course. Good point.
Smoke
Done here.
What a terrible thing for the Jews to have done!
Burning the Torah wouldn't make much sense; what they're upset about is the Mormons' posthumously baptizing Holocaust victims.
Or in other words, one assumption is as good as another, isn't it?
That was pathetically ignorant ... :slap:
Dunemeister
Well-Known Member
Perhaps it was an ironical statement that went badly awry....?
lilithu
The Devil's Advocate
That's not advocacy.
Who's assuming that it was gone by gays? I'm assuming that it was done by person(s) who hate Mormons.
lilithu
The Devil's Advocate
So if the Klan burns a cross in front of an African American family's house but no property was damaged, that's not a hate crime?
I think that people have the right to feel safe. I mean, yes, there will always be accidents and criminals, etc. but people have a right to live without fear for their safety based on race, ethnicity, gender, sexual orientation, religion, age, physical and mental ability... And I interpret this act as one of extreme intimidation.
Free speech cuts both ways. If I say something that you don't like and you retaliate by threats and intimidation, then is my speech really free?
Even more to the point, if I say or do something that you find hurtful, and instead of confronting me about it, you take it out on someone who looks like me or is the same religion as me, is that not evidence of bigotry? (rhetorical "you", not you personally)
Last edited:
Hence the word "becomes."
Nonsense ...
lilithu
The Devil's Advocate
Becomes suggests that it once was advocacy and then changed to something else. I'm saying that it never was advocacy, merely hate.
Advocacy is about trying to advance your cause by convincing those who hold the power to make decisions that your cause is superior to the alternatives. Burning a holy book in front of a church would not under any circumstance advance the cause of marriage equality. It was merely stupid hatred.
Edit:
Sorry Jay, I'm not really arguing with you. It's just that I am an advocate; that's my job, and marriage equality is one of the issues that my organization works on. And that act - both its motivation and its execution - is sooooo far removed from what we do. It actually hurts what we do. It's like anti-advocacy.
Last edited:
Smoke
Done here.
Please specify.
Was it ignorant to leap to a conclusion about who committed these acts and why?
Or was it ignorant to use the pretense of defending a minority group to attack another minority group?
In either case, you should probably share your inside knowledge of these acts with the police.
Last edited:
Apex
Somewhere Around Nothing
I think she is talking about something more along the lines of the old lady who was attacked by some Prop 8 protesters at a town square in CA. They were advocating their position and then, because of their position, proceed with a hate crime against the woman.
DeepShadow
White Crow
I'm confused. Was someone attacking gays on this thread? I missed it.
lilithu
The Devil's Advocate
Me too. If Jay was attacking anyone in this thread (and I use the word "attack" loosely) it's anyone who he perceives are making excuses for this action.