When esoteric stuff gets intellectual

[Vinayaka]

Words are just words, but it is potent enough to give clarity of understanding as well. Siddharameshwar Maharaj's last words or oral communication to Nisargadatta made an impact in him to gain enlightenment later on.

As I said before, most people just need the yamas. If you can't control anger, of what use is high falutin' philosophy? The road to the Self starts at self-control of any sort. Practical stuff like being consistent in sadhana is more useful.

 

[sayak83]

Most really esoteric stuff (chakras, siddhis, kundalini, miracles, etc.) at one time was reserved for mystic royalty, the mystic sages and saints of our faith, deep in yogic sampradayas, beholden to the aftereffects of realising Parabrahman, nirvikalpa samadhi, the elite mystic, celibate to the core, all desires no more, karmas gone, no longer aware he even has an ego, able to go where even awareness can't go. Only the most inner of the inner knew much at all, let alone spoke about it.

Somehow (I have no idea how) this once secret knowledge reserved for the realised, passed on to each other through strict Guru-disciple relationships got out.

Instead of remaining experiential, it became intellectual, out of a necessity to interpret it in some way. and the only way available to the more common less sagely man was the intellect. But oh so much gets lost in that process. Rather than an inner dialogue of vibration, just as the sun heats the planet, it turned into words. Are there words for the sun heating the planet, or is it a process that is natural, and words are unecessary. Just go outside and feel it.

So we get scholars standing in temples not feeling it, we get avid but average ego-enhanced folks chatting away as if it were as external as sipping tea or walking a dog.

Fortunately, the true knowledge remains inner, as there are no words for it. The rest is intellectual gibberish, but the mystic understands that as a stage, smiles and shrugs.

In Saivam, there are 4 progressive stages ... charya, kriya, yoga, and jnana. Charya is good works, but disciplined committed good works. It's doing your dharma, humbly, according to the yamas and niyamas, practicing to the best of your ability. It's the basics, the place from where the other 3 start, and absolutely necessary in order for the other 3 to have any success at all.

Kriya is love of God, after the first one is mastered. It's seeing the duality, in order to ultimately realise the monistic non-duality.

Only then do we enter yoga, the quest for realisation, meditating, turning all that kriya within, to see Siva within, to go on the ultimate quest, union with God, that ends in the non-experience of nirvikalpa samadhi, where awareness itself dissolves and is no more, if but for a split second.

And finally we are in jnana, where the inner mystic stuff is. Now we learn to see the chakras, the hundreds of nadis extending out from each body, and if siddhis come they come, but they too are irrelevant.

(A silent sage in the tradition I follow sat still in a tea shop for 7 years, and peoples prayers were answered on small bits of paper, manifesting and floating down in front of devotees eager to learn.) He never once went 'Look at me, look at me, but just sat ... perfectly still)

And so .... I lament, the day after the holiest Saiva night of the year. Will the esoteric knowledge stay with us, of will it disappear, overwhelmed by an intellect so rigid it destroys?

To some extent this is true. But then again, India has a huge written and oral tradition. Vedas, Upanisads, Sutras and their bhashyas, Shastras and their bhashyas, Vedangas, Epics, Puranas, Poems and Songs...all from various traditions and darsanas. So writing and analysis of the writings has had a long and respected history.

 

[Vinayaka]

To some extent this is true. But then again, India has a huge written and oral tradition. Vedas, Upanisads, Sutras and their bhashyas, Shastras and their bhashyas, Vedangas, Epics, Puranas, Poems and Songs...all from various traditions and darsanas. So writing and analysis of the writings has had a long and respected history.

Indeed it does. But that's not classical yoga.

Just a reminder though, .... I'm personally not an Advaita Vedantin. Not even close. Different school. Ours is less intellectual, and much more experiential.

 

[sayak83]

Indeed it does. But that's not classical yoga.

Obviously writing is not yoga. Nowhere in yoga sutra does it say that writing is yoga.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Welcome back, Kirran. Missed you all the time.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Personal experiences of Satsang of enlightened ones backed by scriptural study and understanding. The experience of peace and bliss in satsang is also a vital factor.

Satsangis: Asaram Bapu, Baba Rampal, Gurmeet Ram Rahim, Virendra Dev Dixit. Three Satsangis are in jail today for rape, the fourth is absconding. I shudder at the word 'satsang'.

 

[Vinayaka]

Obviously writing is not yoga. Nowhere in yoga sutra does it say that writing is yoga.

Writing about yoga is not yoga. Writing about mysticism is not mysticism. Writing about dharma is not dharma. And that is the point of the thread.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Obviously writing is not yoga. Nowhere in yoga sutra does it say that writing is yoga.

Success is when everything is yoga. Words and ideas both are important to writing. That is 'yoga'.

 

[sayak83]

Writing about yoga is not yoga. Writing about mysticism is not mysticism. Writing about dharma is not dharma. And that is the point of the thread.

True. My point is books like yogasutra are good sources to learn about yoga. So books like yogasutra and their bhashyas are important.

 

[ajay0]

Satsangis: Asaram Bapu, Baba Rampal, Gurmeet Ram Rahim, Virendra Dev Dixit. Three Satsangis are in jail today for rape, the fourth is absconding. I shudder at the word 'satsang'.

Satsang means holy company and is the source of wisdom.

The robber Valmiki and serial killler Angulimala became pious and nonviolent in the company of Rishi Narada and Buddha respectively.

The list you have compiled is of dussang. Dussang is the source of delusion.

Kaikeyi who was earlier well-disposed to Rama became hostile to him due to the dussang of Manthara.

 

[ajay0]

I agree wholeheartedly with Vinayaka and would say that right precept and right practice must go together.

In this context , I would like to put down a teaching of Swami Rama Tirtha for reference...


To carry out skilfully an idea into practice is one thing, but to grasp its fundamental meaning is quite another. Even though a nation may be prospering by acting upto certain general principles today, there is every danger of its downfall if those principles are not distinctly supported by sound theory. A labourer who successfully performs a chemical operation is not a chemist, because his work is not supplemented by theory. A fireman who successfully works a steam-engine is not an engineer, because his labour is simply mechanical. We read about a doctor who used to heal wounds by keeping the diseased part under linen bandage for a full week and touching it daily with a sword. The wounds were healed, being kept from exposure by the bandage. But he ascribed the wonderful healing property to the touch of the sword. So thought his patients too. This superstitious theory gave birth to failures upon failures in many cases that required some other treatment than mere bandaging. Hence it is absolutely necessary that right precept and right practice should go hand-in-hand. - Swami Rama Tirtha

 

[Vinayaka]

True. My point is books like yogasutra are good sources to learn about yoga. So books like yogasutra and their bhashyas are important.

And my point is to practice. Buying and reading a book about a practice but not practicing is like buying a car and never driving it. Looks nice in the driveway, but ...

In Saiva Siddhanta, because of how we view the pre-requisites to yoga and how we define yoga, most people aren't ready for it anyway. Most aren't capable because of the restlessness of the mind, awareness jumping hither thither. It's like giving a calculus text to a kindergarten kid. But I digress.

 

[sayak83]

And my point is to practice. Buying and reading a book about a practice but not practicing is like buying a car and never driving it. Looks nice in the driveway, but ...

In Saiva Siddhanta, because of how we view the pre-requisites to yoga and how we define yoga, most people aren't ready for it anyway. Most aren't capable because of the restlessness of the mind, awareness jumping hither thither. It's like giving a calculus text to a kindergarten kid. But I digress.

Cool.

 

[Aupmanyav]

And my point is to practice. Buying and reading a book about a practice but not practicing is like buying a car and never driving it. Looks nice in the driveway, but ...

Can't differ with the statement.

 

[Aupmanyav]

The list you have compiled is of dussang. Dussang is the source of delusion.

There are pretenders. Satsang is not enough, a person also has to keep his/her mind eyes open for what is being propagated in the Satsang. It may be trash or even evil. The same holds for books also. A person who does not realize this will be cheated. In our daily life, one has to be aware of all these things. Not every congregation is of nice or wise people.

 

[Shantanu]

Each person has to form his or her own conceptions of reality, how he or she does that is also up to him or her.

 

[carmenara]

Excellent
Excellent Post.

I sometimes catch myself rolling my eyes at some of my western counterparts who talk about "Chakra Cleanses" and Kundalini Awakening seminars like it's something you can comprehend in a weekend workshop. I don't understand these things, and I don't expect to. A consequence of this is I'm seen by these same peers as unenlightened or inauthentic. It doesn't bother me of course except to say that I wish they understood how much they don't understand.

My method of spiritual advancement is basically to walk around with humility and curiosity. Search, learn, contemplate, repeat. With some seva in the mix. I have to trust that when I am ready Devi will help me move further.

And that is the path I walk. Or aim to.

The rigidity of gurus never appealed to me nor have I ever been handled well by any guru in life. Nor can I somehow erase my truthful experiences just because someone told me to. Asking me "not to worship" certain gods/goddesses is just plain... rude. I will go Kali on them... just kidding!!

To have Maa's continued blessings I simply walk a quiet peaceful path, share wisdom to help others, be aware of what causes conflict and assist to resolve them.

Even my closest peers are not knowing what shall happen to me next. The dances, the visit to Delhi, the desire to follow the Hindu calendar and slowly learn one event at a time. I think I am very comfortable with these and they are special, so I shall seek to learn more and learn to be quiet

Which brings me to the question - these are all sacred knowledge right? I am not mystic royalty nor have I in life shown any measure of devotion before my hesitant temple visits at the end of last year. Certainly I am not worthy of all these. Or was there something special passed along when this tribal dancer from Rajasthan held my hand last year. A LOT of things changed for the better right after.

I'm guessing I will have to be very careful on who I share my experiences with. Some are wanting to know more, most help me along and share stories about Hinduism, others look like they want to disappear and not carry on the discussion

 

[Aupmanyav]

Which brings me to the question - these are all sacred knowledge right? I am not mystic royalty nor have I in life shown any measure of devotion before my hesitant temple visits at the end of last year. Certainly I am not worthy of all these. Or was there something special passed along when this tribal dancer from Rajasthan held my hand last year. A LOT of things changed for the better right after.

I do not go much by 'sacred'. I go by common sense. Hinduism is my culture, so everything connected with it is sacred. You are worthy of all knowledge that you desire, and you would not find us exaggerating or hiding anything, all warts and moles included. The tribal dancer has led you to a world that you were unaware of.

 

[Shantanu]

When one worships the universe and Paramatman everything is sacred.